New to CFWP Business with Lots of Questions!

[Meech]

Hi everyone,

First of all, I?d like to say that this is a great site! I can?t believe all of the valuable information so freely shared by those of you with such extensive knowledge of pearls and the business of pearls. It?s been great reading for me for the past couple of weeks and I?ve learned a lot, so thank you.

By way of introduction, I?d like to say that I am fairly new to the ?world of pearls?. I?ve been living in Suzhou, China for the past year and a half. After many visits to the local pearl market, I?ve become interested in the business of selling cultured freshwater pearls. As such, I?ve taken the Pearls course offered by GIA and have also been working on a business plan while continuing to nurture relationships with vendors I?ve already purchased from, while also trying to seek out new ones. I?m at the point now where I need to start buying ?in bulk? (by my small fry start-up standards ) and I?d like to start re-negotiating some pricing.

Needless to say, I have many questions. At this point, any type of information regarding the industry would be very welcomed and much appreciated. I apologize in advance for this being so long with so many questions, but I figured that I would throw it all out there as I?m unsure where else to go to get this type of information.

I originally planned on selling only the classic white, round/near round CFWP but have also found when back in the U.S. that I am getting many requests for the designer-type jewelry that utilizes all different shapes, sizes and colors of pearls, along with other types of semi-precious stones, etc.

With all of this said, following are several questions that I have:

1. I?ve read about different pearl markets on several threads here. The pearl market I frequent is the Suzhou Pearl and Gem City. I currently buy finished ?classic? pearl sets and other pearl designer jewelry. Being in China, is it worth it for me to travel to either Beijing or the other areas mentioned to purchase pearls as far as average price/quality is concerned? How does the Suzhou market compare?

2. Is there any resource to go to that would help me to translate different stone/gem types from English to Mandarin and vice versa. Although with my supplier's command of English and my (limited) use of Mandarin, we do quite well otherwise, I?ve found that most vendors do not know the English word for the various gems/stones that they sell (unless of course it?s ?pearl?, ?jade? or ?coral?). Alternatively, could someone suggest a book that would assist me in making the identifications myself? I want to ensure that I am accurately representing the product that I am selling.

3. How is the value of a finished piece influenced if it is not strung on silk?

4. Is there any resource I can go to that would give me a ballpark estimate of what would be reasonable costs per strand/per kilo for the different types, quality and sizes of pearls and others?

5. Is there any resource I can go to that would give me a guide for pricing the things I am selling, whether it be wholesale or retail (I have interest from people in both areas)?

6. I?ve read here on a thread that the pearl farms generally sell the top of their inventory to the ?big guys? and that they sell the rest at the market (paraphrasing here, of course)...how does this work then when the farmers at the markets are using the AAA-A rating system? If they are selling the top stuff to others, how can they then claim that they have any AAA inventory to sell to someone like me? Do they just save a bit for the market or is it fair to say that they are not quite telling the truth?

7. Would it be worth it cost-wise to buy loose and drilled by the kilo and pay separately to have them strung?

8. Any opinions regarding what would have the highest market demand....the finished ?classic? pearl jewelry and designer jewelry or selling loose pearls or those temporarily strung?

9. Is there anything that I should be asking that I'm not?

Again, I apologize for this being so long. Thanks for taking the time to read it and thanks in advance to anyone willing to share their thoughts, experiences and knowledge!!!

Best regards,

Meech

 

[jshepherd]

Welcome to the forum!

1. I?ve read about different pearl markets on several threads here. The pearl market I frequent is the Suzhou Pearl and Gem City. I currently buy finished ?classic? pearl sets and other pearl designer jewelry. Being in China, is it worth it for me to travel to either Beijing or the other areas mentioned to purchase pearls as far as average price/quality is concerned? How does the Suzhou market compare?

If you are buying finished goods you may as well stay in Suzhou. You will be able to do better in Shanxiahu (likely), but not in the other major cities.
It is important to note, however, that this can be very relative. You may be getting great deals, deals which would be difficult to obtain from an unknown supplier. You may also be paying a "tourist" price now, and may be able to do better even in Hong Kong. It is really difficult to say without seeing the product and knowing the cost.

2. Is there any resource to go to that would help me to translate different stone/gem types from English to Mandarin and vice versa. Although with my supplier's command of English and my (limited) use of Mandarin, we do quite well otherwise, I?ve found that most vendors do not know the English word for the various gems/stones that they sell (unless of course it?s ?pearl?, ?jade? or ?coral?). Alternatively, could someone suggest a book that would assist me in making the identifications myself? I want to ensure that I am accurately representing the product that I am selling.

I suggest getting yourself a good, unabridged dictionary. Even a good translator will have difficulty with specific names of stones unless they have some knowledge and interest in them. BUT, you would be best off knowing the stones without having to ask. Otherwise 9 times out of 10 they will just tell you what you want to hear. It is a bad idea to invest much money in ANY jewelry product in China unless you really know what you are doing. No matter how many times they call you friend, remember that it likely translates to "sucker" in Chinese.

3. How is the value of a finished piece influenced if it is not strung on silk?

It is really not that big of a deal, and if you are finishing your pieces in China, they are not using silk. Even the Japanese mix nylon in with the silk now. In the US the silk costs extra, and it does not come in the "easy to use" large spools.

4. Is there any resource I can go to that would give me a ballpark estimate of what would be reasonable costs per strand/per kilo for the different types, quality and sizes of pearls and others?

Unfortunately, no. Unless you have someone there holding your hand that has your interests in mind, and knows what they are doing, it is trial and error. When you start, you over pay - period.
Besides, every year market prices change, so a list would do you no good. If there were such a resource you would then need to have a complete understanding of the available qualities to ensure you were paying a fair market price.

5. Is there any resource I can go to that would give me a guide for pricing the things I am selling, whether it be wholesale or retail (I have interest from people in both areas)?

There was once such a guide in "The Pearl Book", that many people use. But it is grossly inflated. Browsing jewelry stores will over-inflate your confidence, as the vast majority are overpriced. Just set a comfortable margin and work with it. You can adjust it as you need or see fit.

6. I?ve read here on a thread that the pearl farms generally sell the top of their inventory to the ?big guys? and that they sell the rest at the market (paraphrasing here, of course)...how does this work then when the farmers at the markets are using the AAA-A rating system? If they are selling the top stuff to others, how can they then claim that they have any AAA inventory to sell to someone like me? Do they just save a bit for the market or is it fair to say that they are not quite telling the truth?

That is true. Getting top quality goods at the markets is extremely difficult. You will not even find it within the Shanxiahu atrium market. These are all long gone, except for the few loose, undrilled pieces.

One important thing to note is that the farmers are NOT AT the market. Those are all traders - every last one of them. Although they ALL claim to be farmers, none of them are.

It is not that they are saving AAA for the market, it is simply a difference of opinion of AAA. I have seen many, many AAA hanks (as they were offered) that were composed of 6th or 7th grade pearls. When dealing in China forget about any letter grades they place on the hanks. There is no standard there, and if you want AAA, make sure the pearls are; round, clean (no spots or only 1 or 2 here and there), and lustrous (good, sharp reflection). If the pearls have a superb luster some leeway can be given to the shape, and then they may be slightly off-round and still classify as top grade hanks.

The sellers will always, always claim to have the best quality pearls, and claim to be selling you exactly what you want. They want the sale, at all costs, and will never say they "do not have it". When I started buying a decade ago, I was never told no. Today I have to search out and find what I am looking for, and the suppliers always tell me "no, it is not currently available", when it is not. This is because they know that I know exactly what it is I am trying to buy.

7. Would it be worth it cost-wise to buy loose and drilled by the kilo and pay separately to have them strung?

Absolutely it would. But buy by the hank, not loose pearls, and hire someone to string. Stringing costs next to nothing in China. Just be careful they do a good job.

8. Any opinions regarding what would have the highest market demand....the finished ?classic? pearl jewelry and designer jewelry or selling loose pearls or those temporarily strung?

Finished jewelry, without a doubt. You would have a very difficult time competing in the loose pearl category unless you invested a tremendous amount of money, and you had the buyers. This is especially true if you purchase from a market, where markups are likely going to be in the 400% range.

9. Is there anything that I should be asking that I'm not?

LOL Don't worry! This forum is not going anywhere!

 

[pearltime]

Hi all! Is there any real jade in China? At one site an expatriate living in China said there is no such thing as real jade in China.

 

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Karen,

That depends on what you call "real" jade and what you mean by "in China." Jade comes in two varieties, jadeite and nephrite. Although nephrite is the "original jade" of Chinese tradition, jadeite from Myanmar (formerly called Burma) displaced it as a jewel about 200 years ago. Nephrite is found in Turkestan (Szechuan) that now belongs to China. Jadeite is being sold in China but prices are about 5-10x of what you would expect from an American perspective. High-quality jadeite costs up to US$ 25,000.00 per carat in imperial color (which is kingfisher blue and not green as is often believed). Untreated, high-grade jadeite glows like untreated Manchurian pearls. Jadeite occurs in all colors of the rainbow and there is a certain top grade for each color. Occasionally, a highly translucent and glowing petal pink jadeite is found in Burma that can command even higher prices than imperial color.

Zeide

 

[jshepherd]

You can also expect much of the jade you see at all those markets to be glass. Look closely at the bangles and you will often see one concentric line running through the center of it.
I have never researched Jade in China, but did learn long ago that the real value and business was in pearls.

 

[pearls-wholesale-china]

no real jade in china? i don't think so

no real jade in china? i don't think so

hello, in guangzhou,there is a road which is special in seeling jade.who say no real jade in china? i think it is wrong? so many people come from different country all come to here to wholesale jade. if you said there is no real jade in china,i think it is the same from the other country.

Hi all! Is there any real jade in China? At one site an expatriate living in China said there is no such thing as real jade in China.

 

[Meech]

Hi Jeremy,

Many thanks for taking the time to sort through my post and answer my questions! I really do appreciate it and it is extremely helpful.

One follow-up question if you don't mind: Is there a reference guide (with photos) you could suggest that would help me in identifying the various stones, etc.?

Best regards,

Meech

 

[jshepherd]

Unfortunately that is not a question I can answer. I am only in the pearl business. Someone here should be able to answer that question for you however. If not, Mr. Amazon will surely have a solution!

 

[perlas]

meech,

regarding gemstones, there are tons of gem books and sites. below are a couple of sites:

http://crystalrivergems.com/products/gemstoneglobe/pages/124.htm
http://www.landofodds.com/store/gemcolor.htm

i understand you are inquiring about gemstones that will be used for beading. there are a lot available in china esp. the ones belonging to the quartz family like amethyst, chalcedony, citrines, etc.

however, many are also dyed and a lot are even glass.

like in pearls, the best way to determine between the genuine, the treated, and the fakes, is by looking at as much stones as you can over the years (although this notion is deceiving when it comes to cut gems since synthetics and created gems are getting better, even having the same chemical composition as the natural ones).

it's hard to elaborate telling the difference let's say, between green jade, chrysoprase, and emerald beads. you need to test the stones. some have tell-tale signs but some can look the same. price is also an identifier though but be careful.

a few tips for you:

1) dyed gems - put acetone in cotton and rub it hard in the bead. if you see color in the cotton, the goods are dyed.
examples: lapis lazuli is frequently dyed to improve color
howlite is dyed blue to look like turquiose
a lot of corals are dyed red
2) glass beads are frequently used and given a "gem" name.
examples: cherry quartz is made of glass.
goldstone is made of glass with copper.
most cat's eye are man-made fiber optic glass.
3) at low temperature, stones get cold. if it doesn't, it's plastic. however, glass gets cold too!
4) citrine is heat-treated amethyst, athough naturals may occur.
5) many green stones are given a "jade name" but they aren't.
examples: indian jade is adventurine.
korean jade is usually bowenite (serpentine).
australian jade is chrysoprase

i hope above helps you.

 

[Meech]

I second that thank you! You all have been so generous with both your time and knowledge.

Meech

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Zeide,
Interesting post on jade though I think I have some disagreement with it,I believe the highest auction price paid was for an Imperial bead but will think about it, do a bit of research and post later after 2nd cup of coffee. Have to say that the YOU TUBE site on your signature line has me humming that nutty Superperforator song.

Will start a new thread.

Best,

 

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Richard,

Naturally baby pink jade is typically not an auction item. The Chinese tradition assigns all kinds of different colors to different ranks and purposes. Pink jadeite is supposed to be the ultimate symbol of love and respect for a woman. Leave it to the Chinese to invent the greatest mysteriquery of them all.

Anyhow, I recently read some books on jade and was surprised to find out that fei cui y? (imperial jade) was actually supposed to be the color of the feathers at the back of the neck of a kingfisher. Those feathers are turquoise blue. So far I have only seen gem chrysocolla in that color that is being sold as blue jade from Taiwan. There is actual blue jadeite in Guatemala but that is far more sedate in color.

Zeide

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Ziede,

Here you go. This is my opening shot at defining quality in jadeite. Unfortunately the forum software removed all the footnotes. You will see that my use of terms contrasts with Hughes (see link below). All comments welcome.


Jade, The Stone of Heaven
By Richard W. Wise, G.G.
©2006

Jadeite is evaluated using what has been called the three c’s and two t’s. There is color/clarity/cut then transparency and texture. With the addition of texture, jade can be fitted quite easily into the 4 Cs of connoisseurship as suggested in my book’ Secrets of The Gem Trade. Thus, the factors involved in evaluating the gem are color, cut, clarity, crystal and texture. We often hear the Jade is a “Chinese thing” and given that jade connoisseurship in China has an old and venerable history let us consider it within the Chinese context and see if we can relate that tradition to Western terminology

In Western scientific terminology, color divides intro three components; hue saturation and tone . The Chinese approach to connoisseurship can be understood, at least partially, within this context.

Color; Se:

Hue is the word for color as that term is commonly used. Red, orange yellow, etc are referred to as hues. Jade occurs in most colors excepting yellow, red and blue. The finest and most desired hue is Imperial Green. This is variously described as a visually pure green or a blue-yellow-green and sometimes as a slightly yellowish green. This is identical to the Western ideal. In the connoisseurship of primary color gemstones (ruby, sapphire, emerald, tsavorite, jade), a pure primary hue is the most desired.

As in Western gem connoisseurship, hue is the single most important aspect of color. Traditionally it is said that: “the combination of good texture and poor color is worthless, but that of good color and poor texture is still worth something.”

The Chinese characters for jade translate as “Kingfisher’s stone” (feicui). This has led some literal minded western scholars to assert that the finest color in Jadeite must be strongly bluish but the Chinese description is not to be taken literally like other aspects of Chinese connoisseurship it is rather to be understood metaphorically.

Jadeite never achieves the hues of turquoise and orange that defines the kingfisher’s plumage. The key to understanding the term is to compare the recently discovered jadeite with nephrite which was all the jade the Chinese knew of until the late Eighteenth century discovery of jadeite in Burma. If we compare jadeite jade to the traditional Chinese nephrite we understand that the analogy refers to that element of color we in the West call saturation or cui. Cui you will recall is also the second syllable in feicui, the Chinese name for the stone.

Saturation is one of the three components of color and refers to the brightness or intensity of the hue. Saturation is what puts the oomph in international orange; it puts the “hotness” in hot pink and the “neon” in neon blue. The neck feathers of the Kingfisher standout strongly or as we might say possess a high degree of saturation as does the medium/dark toned green hue of the finest jadeite when compared to the relatively dull hues of nephrite.

All colors are naturally bright though some are brighter than others. In the connoisseurship of gems, gray and brown are viewed as saturation modifiers of masks. The addition of either damps down the hue, brown muddies, gray dulls. Chinese connoisseurship uses a similar approach. Brownish hues are referred to as you (oily) and those with gray overtones are called hui or (ashy).

Cui is usually described using terms like sharp (Jiao), bright (yang), and hot (la)
The mind has no memory for color so The Chinese also employ a type of sensory reinforcement, a method that is one of the true secrets of the gem trade . La and jiao together make up the term for chilli pepper, lajiao. This term further illustrates the metaphorically approach favored by the Chinese and the manner in which one sense is used to reinforce the other. The term laijiao refers both to the rich verdant green of the pepper and to its burning taste which reinforces the visual, the searing bright saturation of the gem’s finest colors.

Tone; Nong: Tone is about the lightness or darkness of the hue. It can be thought of as adding white or black to a bottle of ink. The more white that is added the lighter the hue, the more black the darker. As in the West there appears to be two schools of aficionados, those that prefer a lighter and brighter hue and those who prefer darker and richer. Color science teaches us that the hue green reaches its optimum saturation at a relatively dark 75% tone. Today
the market prefers the latter but going back to the early Twentieth Century the preference was for lighter and brighter.

Color must also be evenly distributed through the gem, a quality known as yun. Just as in the West, a visually uneven or mottled appearance is not desirable.

Crystal and Texture; Zhong:

Jade is the only gem among the top-tier, the most expensive of the precious stones with a fibrous aggregate structure.. All others are mono-crystalline. The Chinese word, zhong a word sometimes translated as texture actually combines texture with what I call crystal or transparency . Zhong is divided into two components: shui fen or “water content” and zhi di or what we in the West mean when we use the word: texture.

Shi fen is similar to the archaic western term water as in “gem of the finest water” and literally means transparency. The extent to which light penetrates the material is measured in fen (10ths of a Chinese inch or about 3.6mm). The thickness to which a slab of jade may be cut is dependent upon this feature.

The second component is zhi di, and refers to the size, shape and type of the internal features that make up texture. Shui fen and zhi di are the two qualities that comprise zhong. A gem with a high degree of transparency is described as honey like, that is, it has very little visible texture at all. The least amount of texture is what is most desired. However, the Universe of the possible is dictated by the nature of the material. This can be seen when Jadeite is compared to emerald. See http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/jade_burma_part_2.htm

Like jadeite, emerald is chromium colored green gem. Old mine emerald is often described as having a honey-like transparency. Unlike jadeite, emerald has a mono-crystalline structure that contrasts with the poly-crystalline interlocking fibrous structure of jadeite. As a single crystal, emerald can achieve true transparency while poly-crystalline jadeite will achieve, at best, a high degree of translucency. Thus in jade you will always have some texture and the character of the texture becomes most important.

The highest quality, “glass jade” is described as having a high degree of translucency and a fine texture whereas number two quality, “ice jade” has a high degree of translucency and a course texture. Jade will always have some visible texture. A good analogy to the translucency of glass jade might be compared to looking through a thin slice of honeydew melon. Zhi di also overlaps with the Western concept of clarity. Fine silk or root like structures may add to the visual appeal while dark irregular blotches or clouds will detract from the stone’s visual appeal.

Cut is perhaps the least important factor in the connoisseurship of jadeite. The Chinese prefer certain traditional shapes, saddle rings, pi, and so forth. Carving present a whole other series of aesthetic criteria that goes beyond the present discussion.

In summary, despite the fact that the Chinese use a series of unique terms to describe the basic elements of jade connoisseurship, it is possible to relate their terminology to contemporary Western terms. Once subjective, metaphorical classifications of these basic concepts such as moss in snow, plantain shoots after rain are introduced the treading gets harder. These terms are also analogous and relate to the items mentioned. Thus, a through grounding in Chinese flora and fauna is also necessary if one is to proceed further. The question is, is it really necessary to understand the Chinese cultural context to appreciate a fine piece of jadeite? As with all gems, beauty is the ultimate criterion and the concepts outlined above should be sufficient to give the aspiring aficionado the tools with which to appreciate that beauty.

 

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Richard,

Silly me thought The Stone of Heaven was written by Adrian Levy and Cathy Scott-Clark and not you. More a political history than anything else. Also, I am wondering why red jade was for exclusive use by the emperor and orange-yellow jade for his immediate family if they do not exist. Actually Fred Ward has similar strange notions in his ultra-bief treatise of the subject. I admit that I have not yet actually seen brilliant turquoise jade that was not actually gem chrysocolla. However, there is no reason why it should not exist.

Zeide

 

[Richard W. Wise]

I knew I heard that title somewhere and it was not original with those authors, it is the Chinese term for the stone. Perhaps there is such a thing as red jade, I have not seen it. There is some pretty hot orange and maybe some verbal confusion. Gem Silica or Gem Chrysacolla is sometime referred to as blue jade.

Anyway, thats why I am doing this test run. Iron out the wrinkles.

 

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Richard,

I know it is a euphemism for jade as translated from Chinese, but then I do not have to deal with international copyright laws while you do. I am also aware that gem chrysocolla is often referred to as Taiwan blue jade, I think I mentioned that so far in every post on jade.

The most expensive jade jewelry item ever made was a pepper of perfect emerald green jade for Xiang Fei. However, it was often remarked upon that it indeed was green like a pepper and did not take flight to heaven like a kingfisher and was thus not perfect jade. Now, I don't know how the sky looks where you live, but here in California that reference clearly suggests turquoise blue as does its name stone of heaven. I do not think that there is any time of day and any place on earth where the heaven looks emerald green, unless you are in Emerald City, OZ. And, I think the sky itself was blue there, too. Well, somewhere over the calsilica at least.

Zeide

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Ok dropped the article, title now "Stone of Heaven" The rest of your post I don't understand.

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Zeide,

The blue business is simply incorrect.

 

[Zeide Erskine]

Hi Richard,

Be that as it may, the feathers on the back of the neck of a kingfisher are still bright blue and so is the sky in fair weather. I don't think the Chinese are color blind or do they get them mixed up in other stone names, too? Is there a stone of the sun that is officially named the canary stone and is, for instance, pink? Is it maybe a translation quirk that is to confuse us western barbarians? Something to make us understand that the reference to the sun and canaries only refers to saturation of color, not the color itself? Some research into this oddity of consistent descriptive terms that are at blatant odds with reality is sorely needed here.

Zeide

 

[Richard W. Wise]

Ziede,

Metaphor can be very misleading if it is pressed in a literal way. The Chinese are not color blind but they are poetic. I have yet to find any reference to blue jade other than the one in Secrets in the chapter on crysacolla. My explanation is based on a wonderful anonymous essay in Christie's Jade Auction catalogue published in 1995. Send me an email and I will provide the reference. I think you can get one from Henry Polissack, the book dealer thats where I got mine.

Red jade is, in fact orange-brown. Check www.Masonkay.com