pollution in China

jshepherd said:
China is quickly becoming a major polluter, but it is important to point out that they have a long way to go to catch up with the #1 polluter. And we all know who that is ...

Do we? Has anyone ever been to Siberia? I worked for a Fortune 100 U.S. Chemical Company and traveled widely as part of my job. We are not the worst in the world, even though many would like us to think so.

I know the true story of Bhopal, the Indian Government is solely responsible for ever death (if any wants to know what really happened, send me a private message). I have seen burning rivers in Russia. Children whose mothers were exposed to so much mercury or lead that they are grossly deformed. Think of Love Canal applied to a city of 500,000 or 1,000,000. We may have had "Three Mile Island" but the Russians had Chernobyl.

magnum_essay_chernobyl.jpg


I am not saying that we should stop what we are doing to improve the environment or hold those responsible accountable for their actions, but my experience says we are not the worse.

Wayne
 
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It is a worldwide problem. In the Bhopal tragedy the Indian government and Union Carbide sunk to an all time low. The disgusting attempts at a coverup and the lack of human compassion are just unbelievable and revolting. Yet it happened! Everyone should know the true story.

How does all this relate to pearls? Why are molluscs having a hard time? What is the state of our oceans like today? Who is to blame? Ultimately we have to point the finger at ourselves. Do we care? Most governments certainly don't without public pressure. Bhopal showed just how much people didn't care(and still don't).

Everyone please read Julia Whitty's twelve page report on the state of our oceans. It will make you want to cry.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2006/03/the_fate_of_the_ocean.html

Slraep
 
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Slraep said:
It is a worldwide problem. In the Bhopal tragedy the Indian government and Union Carbide sunk to an all time low. The disgusting attempts at a coverup and the lack of human compassion are just unbelievable and revolting. Yet it happened! Everyone should know the true story.
Slraep

The story of Bhopal.

It starts with Union Carbide selling pesticides to India. The Indian Government decided that they did not want to buy pesticides, instead they wanted them manufactured in India. Union Carbide was told to build a plant or leave India.

Union Carbide tried to convince India that the process was to dangerous. But they were not successful. Finally, Carbide agreed to build the plant in a remote part of India with a 5 kilometer no man's land (not individual could live within 5 km of the plant).

The 5 km restriction was not enforced by the Indian Government. The shanty town was started the same day plant construction began. The Indian Government ignored all protests and demanded that construction continue.

Before the "accident" the Indian management turned off the chiller that maintained the temperature of the MIC storage tank at 0 degrees Centigrade. The temperature was allowed to rise to 25 C. The temperature alarm was disabled. The storage tanks were equipped with vents that piped any escaping material to a scrubbing tower. A scrubbing tower is a large stack that is flood with water spray at the rate of 1000's of gallons per minute. The scrubbing town had been disassembled by the Indian management.

At this point, the MIC is at a very reactive temperature with only one safety line. The MIC unit and storage tanks were surround by water cannon capable of knocking any release of MIC>

Approximately 2000 gallons of water was pumped into the storage tank. The result was an exothermic reaction that broke the cap on the tank (the cap was 5 feet of reinforced concrete). A low cast Indian tried to warn the Unit Engineer who was having tea with the Plant Manager (neither of them were Low Cast). The man was sent berated for interrupting Tea, his message was never delivered.

The results are well known. All three safety measures failed. The chiller was broken, the scrubbing tower was removed, and the water cannons were never turned activated.

Thousands of people were killed, not one of them was a plant employee, all of the dead lived within the 5 km no man's land.

The plant at Bhopal was owned by Union Carbide India. 51% of the stock was owned by the Indian government, 49% was owned by Union Carbide USA. Not one employee of the plant was American, all were Indian Nationals. The Indian Government controlled the hiring process at the plant. Numerous protests by Union Carbide USA concerning the operation of the plant were ignored.

After the disaster, Union Carbide USA provided 200,000,000 USD in immediate aid of which only a small percentage reached Bhopal.

Does Union Carbide USA bare any responsibility? Yes, they put a hand grenade in the hands of infants and the infants pulled the pin. They are guilty of not having the moral will to resist blackmail. They are guilty of wanting to make a profit. There were many other stupid mistakes that Union Carbide USA made after the accident, the result is that Union Carbide no longer exist.

A complete analysis of all of Union Carbide's data was conducted by Arthur D. Little, London, their conclusion was that Union Carbide USA was not responsible for the tragic events in Bhopal and had, in fact, tried to resist the actions of the Indian Government and it plant management personnel that lead to the death of thousands.

Who pumped the water into the storage tank. A low caste employee seeking revenge against his supervisor. This fact is an investigative result of the interviews conducted by Indian investigators.

When talking about Bhopal, always remember that not one water cannon was activated and NOT ONE PLANT EMPLOYEE WAS INJURIED.

The end.......:(
 
Slraep said:
Oh yeah, we are guilty as sin. ....We are the consumers of junk. ... In fact, besides being the world's biggest polluters, we are also responsible for a huge chunk of China's pollution.


Ha! Well.... yeah... I am neither American, not living in the US, or in a particularly high-consumption society, but I do not feel particularly righteous because of that either. Just consider:

- US demand for imports transferred more wealth into developing economies (particularly S-SE Asia, Central America, and a few others) than direct aid or investment ever could. It didn't even ask for the usual diplomatic B.S. of 'democratic standards', 'freedom of press' - nothing. Just anything it takes to crank the cheap labor gear up and swallow the dirt of progress for good measure: i.e. he most wise gift of nation-building from grass-roots up.

- US loss of whole manufacturing sectors helped invent entire industries elsewhere. Economic imbalance between manufacturing and knowledge economies resulting from the the accumulation of such transfers over decades are heating up innovation everywhere... much of it paid for by US trusts, companies and brain power. Amen!

- American consumers are taking up debt under increasingly hard conditions to support upstream industries throughout the low-wage world. I mean, these good fellows keep the giving going even of wealth they do not have!

- If it wasn't for all the easier jobs and lives of the consumption stricken American youth, thousands of brilliant, driven foreign students brought in each year by the best universities in the world - US based, most of them - would still be grazing cattle somewhere. I am not even guessing here.

- And when the slow-motion gears of a democratic, egalitarian society would just not bleed away fast enough, this country went one better and allowed some of his risk-takers get absurdly wealthy: just to make things go faster by their careless choices. No one even seem to care what such inequality would bring to every one's sanity and the nation's political will. What more meaningful sacrifice could one make, then throw themselves to experience the same dire straits as the unfortunate they might want to help?

- Not to mention where the world would be if it wasn't for the silly military expenses of the US - I mean, that's one good sector where a hearty imbalance of power really pays! There's terrorism alright, but cross-border war has become quite rare for the first time in history. That ought to count for something.

- And if it wasn't for the bloody foreign policy of the US, could Europe possibly look so good infront of its own old and new-found allies by comparison? Nooooo.... No way.

- More still: without the fast-food, fast-fashion and fast-gone-life of the American nation to measure against, how many would have never learned to value the benefit of their expensive public goods, seemingly absolete traditions, slow-motion existence and small-sized selves, raw-milk cheese and other FDA-banned goodies? How much poorer the world would be...

What other nation would have sacrificed so much to the rest of the world? Other do rank up there for good will, good example and good deeds on the international arena, but I couldn't name any other nation who would have sold its own soul, fouled its own heritage, surrendered its hard-won liberties, lent away its very future and corrupted its citizens just to make the rest of the world look good. :eek: I am not sure what the 'thank you' might be for that, but it may well come sometime during my life time: from where I am standing, it should make a good show, Coke and popcorn provided appropriately.

Sad. Just ask any American expat in continental Europe. They should have a story or two worth telling. I still hear every now and then someone uttering that 'America is the Greatest Country in the World', but that's a joke nowadays. Dark humor. Like the dim gags from the time of the late Cold War.


Wanted to let these 2c loose for a while, just not polished for the fine nose of the press.
 
Hi Ana,

By saying that I believe we are hige consumers of junk here in North America, I was making a statement about environmental issues more than political. So politics aside, because that can become a rotten can of worms real quick, I still think that gas emissions, the consumption of non-recyclable junk(in the USA and Canada that means food too) and the indiscriminate use and dumping of toxic chemicals are the major causes of environmental degradation.

I guess, at this point, the responsibility for our environmental cleanup(if not too late), lies within the individual. If every one of us goes "green" and makes difficult yet necessary comsumer choices, we can only then force big business to stop the manufacture and sale of garbage. What is garbage? Well, that will be the hard part, weaning ourselves off the toxic luxuries we never even gave a second's thought to before. For instance, are there still people who are using non-biodegradable soap?? Using toxic solvents for cleanups around the kitchen and elsewhere? Sure there are! The store shelves are fulll of the stuff. It is all going down drains and into our oceans and back into our drinking water. How long before a mollusc cannot survive to make a pearl? And how long before we can no longer survive?

Slraep
 
Slraep said:
I guess, at this point, the responsibility for our environmental cleanup lies within the individual. [...] we can only then force big business to stop the manufacture and sale of garbage.


Not so sure... to me, it looks like any propaganda meant to 'change consumer behavior' is just marketing. It is every marketer's dream to 'change consumer behavior' too.

The moral value of making someone pay more for the 'right thing' just reeks.

People can only choose from what they are given to choose from.

Now... obviously I have my own preconceptions and biases: for once, I believe that self-interest and prices are the most effective and legitimate policy instruments. Others - even taxation, let alone guilt-mongering publicity campaigns - seem less effective and definitely less transparent, to say the least.

May not be the most popular view in the world after Kyoto and Gore's and what not... but ... as long as green squads do not even bother preaching for alms in places like this, I can still tote my opinion around.

Now, I believe there is some problem, if myself and many long for things from before market economy success. However, I believe that such collective nostalgia is being further exploited by 'the system' rather than addressed.


Now... I would really hate to let my day's work spill into posting this much... Should have known better already!
 
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Valeria101 said:
Not so sure... to me, it looks like any propaganda meant to 'change consumer behavior' is just marketing. It is every marketer's dream to 'change consumer behavior' too.

The moral value of making someone pay more for the 'right thing' just reeks.

People can only choose from what they are given to choose from.


Just like I wasn't talking politics, I'm not talking marketing but environmental issues. Proper consumer behavior towards our ever growing pollution problem is to simply avoid, as much as possible, the products that pollute. For example, you don't have to use herbicides on your lawn, you can weed manually. No marketing there. Many times the "right thing" is avoidance and it doesn't cost anything except some extra time. Spending a dollar more on a biodegradable product makes for a responsible and compassionate person who cares about what is happening in the world today---not someone influenced by propaganda. Are there still people who think global warming, pollution and the use of "green" products are propaganda???

Slraep
 
Slraep said:
Just like I wasn't talking politics, I'm not talking marketing but environmental issues. Proper consumer behavior towards our ever growing pollution problem is to simply avoid, as much as possible, the products that pollute. For example, you don't have to use herbicides on your lawn, you can weed manually. No marketing there. Many times the "right thing" is avoidance and it doesn't cost anything except some extra time. Spending a dollar more on a biodegradable product makes for a responsible and compassionate person who cares about what is happening in the world today---not someone influenced by propaganda. Are there still people who think global warming, pollution and the use of "green" products are propaganda???

Slraep

I agree entirely. One of the reasons why people are changing their consumption habits is to enjoy a healthier life, that is the major force driving the "Organic Products" line of foods/beverages. Once people think about it for a bit some may start thinking: "My food is safe, but are my clothes safe? are the toys my children play safe?" etc. In the end it is only logic that those people WILL choose goods that they consider safe for the environment, to local cultures and in favor of sound labor conditions.
Of course, we will always have people that WILL NOT CARE. I mean...they don't care about themselves (gorging on burgers and fries) nor about the environment and they surely don't care about labor conditions elsewhere (I am sure they are not enjoying fair conditions either).
I don't think it is a question of politics of even about marketing, I really think it is a question of Survival of the Human race and our Planet, a question all sentient beings should ask. And to rephrase JFK's wonderful phrase: "Ask not what your Country can do to Save the Environment, but what you as a Human can do to save your Planet".
Every little bit counts.
 
Slraep said:
Just like I wasn't talking politics, .... Are there still people who think global warming, pollution and the use of "green" products are propaganda?

CortezPearls said:
I agree entirely. One of the reasons why people are changing their consumption habits is to enjoy a healthier life...


We may be speaking of different things. As sustainability issues seem rather different depending where and how one lives...

I don't eat hamburgers, and locally McDonalds is still allot more expensive than the farmer's market. Of course, that means that the farmers cannot afford to buy the hamburgers!

For this country, recent environmental progress came not by willing policy, but due to the sudden collapse and profound changes of the economy that also brought in unthinkable human costs. Poverty does not bring better health.

I cannot agree that anyone may ask anyone else to buy a higher moral standard. No matter how wealthy the buyer might be. Re-arranging social distribution seems to be possible by policy, but the ethics involved remains a tad over my head. The mechanisms involved in the success stories (taken from international comparisons at national level this time) seem to be above the individual level though, and problematic enough.

Global warming ... I was glad to see policy shifting firmly to global level. Take the recent Stern review, and the impending revision of the Kyoto agreement this autumn: it is 'think globally act globally' for them. The evaluation of Kyoto in Vienna a couple of weeks ago was rather less glamorous than the press release had it, but... that's still better than many other global initiatives (especially development aid).


I doubt we are on opposite sides of the fence. Perhaps seeing the problem from different perspectives, rather. And I am not saying I have it right.
 
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Valeria101 said:
I cannot agree that anyone may ask anyone else to buy a higher moral standard.

Hi Ana,

No, I doubt we are on the opposite side of the fence too, I beleive that you worry just as much as I do, but I still do not understand what the "higher morality" brand you are using has anything to do with environmental issues. I personally think it is immoral to plug CRAP to an unsuspecting, or over-trusting public. As of today, there is a commercial running on TV here put on by the Canadian cancer society saying that now statistics show that one out of two people will be stricken with cancer. That's terrifying. So please forgive my "higher moral standard" and anyone else's when we try to knock some environmental sense into the average Joe. I do not trust government to rectify the problems we are having. Our environmental problems are best solved by public reluctance to buy and consume CRAP. It is everyone's duty to stop dragging their feet and become involved. I saw first hand how the US government "helped" some of my friends in New Orleans after the disaster, so don't hold your breath thinking government will do anything to remedie the environment, until maybe the last moment when there is no more potable water and we are gasping for air.

Where is the logic in allowing the earth's poor to pollute the earth because they and their families are starving, when that same pollution will sicken them and ultimately kill them with an iffy prospect as to the continuation of the survival of their offspring?? Or ours. No, I maintain my position in urging everyone to become proactive and do something. Let us encourage the sane and innovatively healthy alternatives and refuse the destructive polluting CRAP. Even if the good stuff costs a couple dollars more.

It's funny you mention not eating hamburgers!

Meet(or should I say, meat)---> THE BIONIC BURGER
http://www.thebestdayever.com/burger.htm

Slraep
 
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CortezPearls said:
I really think it is a question of Survival of the Human race and our Planet, a question all sentient beings should ask. And to rephrase JFK's wonderful phrase: "Ask not what your Country can do to Save the Environment, but what you as a Human can do to save your Planet".
Every little bit counts.

Douglas, I think you are fully tuned in to the ailing earth because you have seen first hand with your own eyes what the effect of pollution is doing to our oceans and ocean life, and it has sent a jolt throughout your entire being. You are right, we have the power, as individuals to save our planet. Most of the time, though, we need a little push or information that scares the bejesus out of us to get us off our behinds.

Slraep
 
Slraep said:
I do not trust government to rectify the problems we are having.

That the US government? Right then.

Whether others can really do it well all the way is a good question, but there's still way better out there (Northern Europe, I would think).

What can/does motivate government action in each case is yet another very good question... US is quite a case.

Our government? :eek:


Slraep said:
Our environmental problems are best solved by public reluctance to buy and consume CRAP.

OK. I guess that's the one point of divergence between our beliefs: about means of action rather then ends.


Slraep said:
Where is the logic in allowing the earth's poor to pollute the earth because they and their families are starving...

I am aware that this 'right to pollute' has already been claimed during the Kyoto negotiations and elsewhere. It sounds wrong to me as much as it does to you.

Imposing trade and financial barriers against developing countries in the name of environmental standards also seems rather wrong. At least as long as alternatives to the use of polluting technologies are not made accessible one way or another. Using the vulnerable economics of developing nations to shift pollution to them is even worse.

For now, I am not ready to believe that making US buyers feel guilty about their consumption is going to address all this or even kick start significant change. It seems quite a leap of faith... for a chronically skeptic having spent a good number of years feeding the sustainable development policy research on both sides of the Atlantic. When I have started, I had way more enthusiasm and way less doubt myself.

These days, it comes less easy to state my beliefs in a short post or two. It is helpful to hear how they sound infront of an open forum though! :eek: :eek: Back to the drawing board...
 
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Heck, I am only 37 years old and I remember the World I grew up in...and it is already different from this one. My children have seen less live animals, less blooming flowers in the Sonoran dessert than those I saw when I was younger. Toads for instance...we had so many toads after the rainy season, now all I find are rocks, mud and trash. And this goes for everything...tidal pools were full of live beings, the ocean brought a vast array of life every other day: giant Humboldt calamari, vast amounts of beautiful red praws, giant blue shrimp, giant zebra urchins, the massive kelp forests, fin whales giving birth in front of you...seems all is gone. Nothing there for my children to experience...this cannot be the World we will inherit. And I remember very clearly it was during 1997's Ni?o when things started happening, when the Mexican economy was in shambles and the poor people started fishing everything out, also when PET bottles became more abundant.

Governments? They SHOULD represent the people...we ARE the people. Then IT IS US who should be doing something, politicians are having way much fun in their Macchiavelian plots. And we can either start a violent war against each other or start a war against IGNORANCE... Education is our first line of defense. And if you SELL or BUY something (we all do) then you can HELP by educating yourself and by educating others as well. No big thing. Just try to do the right thing!

Guilt might work on a customer, but my toughts are on the opposite side of the fence... will it make you feel better??? No need to focus on the negative aspect, instead settle for the positive: you ARE doing something good...and not only for you, but for countless others :)

This world needs more teachers and less politicians. I am not trying to go into a pointless debate here...the forum is about Pearls, somehow one thing led to another. Maybe we should just STOP this thread and find a better -more suited- forum. But it was good to vent this all out...whoa!
 
Hi everyone. This is pretty heady company with Danuta, Ana and Douglas laying it all out. I think it is progressive stuff and it's good to see that it has a place in the world of pearls.
I wanted to bring the thread back around though and say that as Doug pointed out, how we farm pearls is a sum of choices we make. We can either do it sensitively with respect and love for the environment and it's creatures or we can do it otherwise.
Where my farm in the Tuamotus the fish populations have actually exploded. As on Doug's farm in Baja, we don't fish in our waters (unless you are under 8 or over 80). The fish are more numerous around and under our farm than anywhere on the atoll. On a glassy day it's like a giant aquarium. We clean our oysters by putting them in special zones that the fish can access. For every type of bio-fouling (sponges, anemones, parasitic oysters, sea mats, etc, etc) there is a fish species that corresponds to it. This means that the fish that profit from our farming are diverse in size and species so no one species gets the upper hand.
Then there is how the social structure of the farm is set up as well. The longer you have been there, the more you climb the ladder in the company. Everyone is treated with respect and our team actually stays on the farm for the holidays! Think about working on a tiny atoll with less than 10 other people for five months, non stop. Wouldn't you want to see some bright lights, maybe a movie, a dance club? They know where the best party is going to be, just like every year.
Anyway, my point is that we are free to choose, whether it be how we run a pearl farm, buy a pearl, or pick our party.
 
Josh said:
Think about working on a tiny atoll with less than 10 other people for five months, non stop.


'Bet the small island makes you guys really see where the boundaries of environmental damage are (close, that is).

Sometimes, working very close from home in a small office, really long hours ... feels like living on an island too. :eek: I doubt any island could take the amount of all-around carelessness folks in this town show for their commons. Bad as it is now, it used to be so much worse!
 
Proper perliculture includes the well being of both your patch of sea and the people who work it. Another problem with how we live is not only the stress we put on the environment but the stress people create in their daily lives. It seems most have lost the ability to connect to the natural world around them. We forget---nature has no equal, and technology has surpassed our common sense and compassion even towards ourselves.

What we do with our free time and how we spend that dollar is actually the most powerful thing we can use to change the world. More power to you who care for the environment.

Danuta
 
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What we do with our free time and how we spend that dollar is actually the most powerful thing we can use to change the world. More power to you.

Danuta[/QUOTE]

Danuta, I appreciate hearing that. Never really thought of it that way.
 
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