[bluecamel]

Hi Jeremy,
So that brings us full circle. What is the answer to dealing with these companies, so they experience some type of consequences for there actions? Or do we just take the position-- Caveat Emptor?

[knotty panda]

I disagree with that idea. I think it might incur some kind of liability







(edited to remove offensive way of stating position)

[jshepherd]

I actually think they way it stands now definitely has quite a bit of effect. This forum was built years ago to keep shysters from running amok on the Internet. Today there are very, very few Sites that carry the claims they carried just a few years ago. I feel it is in large part due to the fact that companies are held responsible for their claims here. If a seller claims to be selling natural black, untreated, AAA+ freshwater pearls, they will be called out - publicly.

But other than that, it is really the voice of the consumer that makes all the difference. By publishing complaints and experiences, I feel this has much more of an effect than a list of "no go" companies.

I really feel that the best way would be to list all the retailers and wholesalers that are members here, and not only members here, but those that abide by all ethical standards of representation.

[bluecamel]

Hi Knotty Panda,
No need to start shaking in your boots or trouble yourself with my post. I fully understand the ramifications of what I threw out. Understand that I’m just venting about what can be done about these unethical businesses and a lot of what I said (extreme prejudice) was tongue in cheek!

The list of the good guys and bad guys…there should be a list of ethical retailers that are supporters of this site. That way the visitors that are uninformed have a starting point so they will not be taken advantage of right out of the box. It has nothing to do with the ethics of businesses that are not on the list.

And the list was just an idea to group together the bad experiences into one location, so the visitor to this site has another tool to work with. Members that visit here each day are kept abreast of information such as the lies of Pearlflection. But what about someone that visits this site one month from now? I just thought it would be beneficial to have an area, (be it a list, section, whatever you want to call it) where the consumer could immediately go for help, because that is what I thought this forum was about…information.

So don’t be afraid. I threw the question out for a solution and you have responded, Caveat Emptor.

Hi Jeremy,
I see your point and you have brought forth a solution to this problem and that is all I was asking for.

[jshepherd]

I actually think your idea for the vendor list is really a good one. It just makes sense. There are so many good ones that cover such a wide range of offerings, from services to findings, to designers, etc.
That is what a forum is about. A place for discussions and the exchange of ideas.

We are currently working on a software redesign for this Site that will tie in very nicely to some sort of "vendor list" idea. Kevin and I just spoke about it over the phone today. So if anyone has a compiled list, please feel free to send it to him or me.

[pattye]

Hi bluecamel and all,

I am against having these kinds of lists, it sounds like vigilante-style tactics to me.

Anyone is welcome to ask questions here about a pearl site or seller, and we happily share our experiences, evaluate websites, advertising claims, etc. There are no doubt many ethical pearl sellers, designers, etc, that do not participate here, and have never heard of pearl-guide.com.

Some of the threads do have a list (complete or not) of the forum members who sell pearls.

Have you, bluecamel, contacted or written to Pearlperfection to complain about their advertising?

There is just no way to protect ourselves from the pain inflicted by some of our choices . But educating ourselves and asking questions, asking questions, and asking more questions improves the odds!

IMO
Pattye
so many pearls, so little time

[Sueki]

I've been reading this thread with quite some degree of trepidation, and am very relieved to read the posts by Knotty and Pattye.
I would hate to see this very helpful and informative forum go down the route of slating alleged dishonest sellers.
The best thing about this forum is that it appears to be a meeting of informed and passionate pearl minds, buyers and sellers alike.
Pattye hits the nail on the head. Anyone reading the forum a month from now will be able to find answers to most questions just by reading the topics.
And any questions not answered by reading can freely be asked.

[boo]

Wow - what a thread! I must confess to a certain reluctance as far as some sort of "blacklist" for unethical vendors because of the legal ramifications. I also think that while a list of recommended vendors will be useful to many people, the folks who will be best off in the long run are those who stick around long enough to educate themselves. I am so grateful for the knowledge that I have gleaned from being a member of this forum, and that knowledge has helped me to gather together the fabulous pearls that I am lucky enough to call my own. Folks who just jump onto this site to pick a name off a list will certainly be directed to fine and reputable sellers, but will they have learned anything about why that Akoya bracelet they want to buy might not make them as happy as something else?

Just my $0.02...

[bluecamel]

Hi Pattye,
I had no idea that the word “list” would create such a firestorm! What I was wondering about was how to group all of the information that is contained in this forum reference the unethical and having it in one location. The information has already been put forth, as part of the public record, but as I explained, if one is not a regular visitor to this site, they would not be aware of things such as Pearlflection, unless they were to read all of the past posts. I just wondered if there was a more convenient way to help educate visitors.

There was no intention of vigilante-style tactics, just questions how to handle the problem and some thoughts. I guess the word “list” and "blacklist" conjured up the wrong message.

Jeremy has come up with a solution of listing the ethical vendors and continuing on from there. Which is the answer to how does one deal with this problem?

Reference the original problem with Pearlflection---you have put forth a rational idea of how to handle them and I thank you---instead of just throwing around adelpated notions of cyber flogging, blackmail and liable.

[jshepherd]

Knotty,
Yes, that is true. There could be (in a sheep's clothing). But what we are not taking into account here is that people constantly come and ask, "where should I go for such and such". There is nothing wrong with having links, most Sites have them. THIS Site has them visible for browsers and non-members. There would also be nothing wrong with people here recommending them based on their own experiences. In that sense, I think it would be a good idea. It would also be a way of holding sellers accountable to keep the link.

The blacklist of course would never happen. It is not the legal ramifications that bother me about it either. I just do not think it would be morally right. But, that aside, anyone who does stay here to learn can come to their own conclusions quite easily.

Bluecamel,
You are not the first to suggest the "blacklist" idea. It has been brought up numerous times, especially regarding eBay sellers. But the main purpose here is to educate people. That education serves the same purpose as a blacklist, but also empowers the consumer. This is something a blacklist would not be able to achieve.

My hope is that consumers do research the companies they intend to buy from before buying. This is what changes company policy. How many embarrassed jeweler are there in the US that have had a pearl-guide member walk into their store and ask a simple question about a strand of pearls in the window? It is empowerment.

[knotty panda]

LOL, yes, I know legal ramifications don't concern you. You're fearless. I wish I could be as fearless. Links? Go for it! But now, that we're on the subject, I've always thought there should be a disclaimer at the door to the site, something like, "Viewpoints expressed by members like Knotty Panda, are strictly their opinion and in no way reflect or are shared by the really cool pearl purveyors who support our site."


edit: that is correct, but personal attacks should not be tolerated for any reason.....

[jshepherd]

But that is the very definition of a discussion forum. With so many opinions firing in so many different directions, there is never a single, unified voice.

But, there are some safeguards in place. This watches out for copyright and other legalities that we bump into every so often.

[Kevin Canning]

the topic of a blacklist is one thing Jeremy and I spoke about in detail today and we both agreed that we didn't want to take that type of approach.


As Jeremy mentioned we get a lot of posts asking what vendor they should purchase from and of course most vendors avoid responding for fear of self-promotion. If we had a trusted vendor list anybody could simply drop the link and move on. No bias towards any one site, simply a list of trusted vendors, designers etc. and the consumer can use that as a starting point for their research.

The blacklist to me would be the "low road" and frankly I'd like to address the issue in a positive, proactive way. If you want to be included on the list, simply straighten up your act, clean up your website and or advertising and we'll gladly list your website.

Its really no more then a simple directory listing, where the vendor has to prove that they are ethical to be listed.

I think if its done correctly it would be a great resource, if done badly it could be well for lack of a better word "cheesy". We are open to all opinions though, so keep them coming.

[Kevin Canning]

And if someone isn't on the good guy list is he a bad guy by omission?

Knotty I just read this part of your post and it struck me as particularly poignant. There is some truth to statement and certainly wouldn't be the intention of a vendor list - the question is can it be avoided?

Some great dialog here guys - please keep posting as this is a community site and we want to build this community to suit our members not just ourselves.

[pattye]

My concern is that when a vendor list is created, that it unintentially appears as a "preferred list" and that a potential customer will not do their homework, comparison shop and ask questions, to find what really meets their needs. I think no matter how hard we try, those omitted from the list will appear as somehow lesser, no matter how many disclaimers appear with the list.

Pattye
so many pearls, so little time