[Bodecia]

Does anyone know if the Chinese look like kasumis are bead or tissue nucleated. I don't want to smash one to find out

Bodecia - who must be off unfortunatley.

[jshepherd]

I believe there is a real need to bead-nucleated pearls, because there is a market for them, they are beautiful, and people really like them. Pearls would turn into a niche market if only mantle nucleation were used. Rounds would be almost unheard of, and that is what most people prefer.

When I mentioned "only" Japan, I was referring to just the Akoya, not that the practice involved Tahitian "keshi seeding" as well. In China there is really not a market for keshi at this time. Also, it is very difficult to find keshi when harvesting by hand. This is still the standard in China, whereas nearly all the farms in Japan use a machine to find the keshi.

[jshepherd]

The Chinese freshwater that look like Kasumi's are likely tissue nucleated. There are very few round bead nucleated coming out of China. Those that are bead nucleated nearly universally have tails.

[Bodecia]

"There are very few round bead nucleated coming out of China. Those that are bead nucleated nearly universally have tails." Part Quote from Jeremy Shepherd

To All in the Know and Otherwise

There are many strands and necklaces sold out of China which are varied in colour. A necklace may have white, pink and lavender in it and called by the seller (on ebay) SS pearls. These pearls are often 8 or 9 mm in diam. Also round or nearly round. What are these strands likely to be. Dyed Akoya, FW pearls or is it possible that they are SW from the South China Sea. If from the South China Sea is it correct in calling them SS pearls? I have also seen 10 mm black pearls called Japanese Pearls - so what are these. Can Akoya grow that big. I do realise that Akoya cannot be black unless dyed but what are they really likely to be... Once again are they likely to be FW or SW. They can be quite good looking too although it seems that Chinese sellers call them anything that takes their fancy at the time. Can get very confusing unless one is an expert.

Sellers all over the world buy these items and then pass them off as whatever they were called by the seller bought from. I feel that most of these pearls are not labelled correctly. But maybe they just aren't sure themselves so pass on the disinformation. i.e. SS pearls or Japanese pearls to make the greatest profit without the hassle of really identifying them or worrying about doing so.

I have thought that most likely many of these are FW but if FW pearls out of China generally have tails that cannot be. So confusion reigns.

And many pearls sold as freshwater are round or very nearly so and if tissue cultivated how can this be?

Thanks, Bodecia.

[Bodecia]

"One of the arguments for nucleation with other pearls is that many of the Chinese big rounds have intermittent conchiolin layers. However, depending on how large a pearl grows, this will sooner or later happen naturally even if there is no renucleation involved." Quote from Zeide.

Hi Zeide, Jeremy & All,

Nucleation with pearls, especially if tissue cultivated FW pearls, seems to me to be a good way to cultivate SW pearls, at least all of the pearl then would be nacre or very nearly so. Is this a widely held view or only one held by a few and if so do you think it would be preferable and even desirable to beading with shell products or glass beads?

I do realise that as Jeremy pointed out that most people do want round pearls and that tissue cultivation may hamper this end but with a genuine pearl nucleation this would still give the desired shape although maybe raising the costs of pearls in general. Perfectly round pearls are beautiful although I like natures way of doing things and love the irregular shapes too.

Jeremy, thank you for your info on the Chinese Kasumi look-a-likes but if this is so then I don't see how they can be considered inferior to genuine kasumi. I have seen quite a few round white either kasumi or the Chinese equivalent. Short of smashing one to see what is inside and that I cannot do to those beauties there seems to be no way to tell the two types apart. And the white swirling beauties are supposed to be very, very rare. Gets more confusing all the time. I really dislike not know what a pearl really is and it is virtually impossible to get a straight answer from any Chinese seller and for that matter most other sellers.

Thank you in advance, Bodecia

[Caitlin]

Hi Bodecia

I want to address this comment you made, as no one else has done so.

I meant to ask later about SS Golden Pearls. It seems that as they are often refered to as PPBs they are not highly thought of on this Forum. But surely there must be many different qualities or are all cultured pearls called PPBs in a derogatory way.

Only a vociferous minority on this forum dislike PPB’s! Zeide especially, never misses a chance to be derogatory about them, and judging by the extremely large number of posts she has made, that opinion does seem to be all over this forum.

Please be aware that Zeide has a point of view and shares it copiously here. It certainly does not reflect the views of most people here nor of the owners of this forum . And this is a forum where points of view are fine and Zeide’s is often interesting, often provocative.


***In the interest of full disclosure, I developed a bias for solid nacre natural pearls as a youngster and expressed it here on this forum also. I wrote about it somewhere on this forum a couple of years ago- I inherited a few small natural pearls, but I am not in the league to buy them. Thus, I was so happy to find cultured freshwater pearls were solid nacre, plentiful, and modestly priced. And I have been so happy Jeremy is finding and selling high quality ones with orient. I think it is brilliant and will really contribute encouragement to produce more high quality.

Even though I have a poor opinion of the longevity of akoya pearls from hubby’s family experience over 3 generations, I just can’t bring myself to be derogatory about SSPs and Tahitians. I try to focus on the positives of the freshwater market (and that does include a few educational references to PPB’s) rather than wasting time jousting with windmills, so I hope my opinion is not confounded with Zeide’s and felt to be a majority.

I have said I think it would be incredible if every farm had maybe a few tissue nucleated pearls growing, but that is a fantasy, until some pearl farmers decide to try it. (Think any of them read this forum?)

Maybe we should do an opinion poll to determine people’s acceptance level of PPB’s as beautiful jewelry? I think it may surprise people to see that PPB’s are fine with most people because they have been the only viable opportunity to own pearls of any kind, for decades and they developed a huge, solid, niche. In a very loose analogy, I think every day akoyas are as ubiquitous as blue jeans. SSP’s and Tahitians are more like designer jeans as are the best akoyas. They aren’t going away, in fact they are increasing in popularity.

Let us just hope that through the educational aspects of this forum, many more people will learn whatever they want to know about pearls and that everyone will want to learn something about natural pearls and the history of pearls.

[jshepherd]

Originally Posted by Bodecia

There are many strands and necklaces sold out of China which are varied in colour. A necklace may have white, pink and lavender in it and called by the seller (on ebay) SS pearls. These pearls are often 8 or 9 mm in diam. Also round or nearly round. What are these strands likely to be. Dyed Akoya, FW pearls or is it possible that they are SW from the South China Sea. If from the South China Sea is it correct in calling them SS pearls? I have also seen 10 mm black pearls called Japanese Pearls - so what are these. Can Akoya grow that big. I do realise that Akoya cannot be black unless dyed but what are they really likely to be... Once again are they likely to be FW or SW. They can be quite good looking too although it seems that Chinese sellers call them anything that takes their fancy at the time. Can get very confusing unless one is an expert.
Sellers all over the world buy these items and then pass them off as whatever they were called by the seller bought from. I feel that most of these pearls are not labelled correctly. But maybe they just aren't sure themselves so pass on the disinformation. i.e. SS pearls or Japanese pearls to make the greatest profit without the hassle of really identifying them or worrying about doing so.

These pearls are always freshwater pearls. The only pearls you will find on eBay from the South China sea are the Akoya that are grown in the Gulf of Tonkin. But the vast majority of the pearls on eBay, even those described as Akoya and not South Sea, are simply low grade freshwater pearls. This is no accident. They know what they are selling. They know none of their pearls are South Sea or from Japan. They just think most Americans cannot tell the difference, and most Americans are exceptionally gullible. By checking the average FleBay pearl seller’s feedback ratings, it is clear that they have judged correctly.

Originally Posted by Bodecia

I have thought that most likely many of these are FW but if FW pearls out of China generally have tails that cannot be. So confusion reigns.

This is not what I meant about the tails. Only the bead nucleated freshwater pearls our of China have tails. The round and near round pearls you see from China are mantle tissue nucleated. There is almost no production, except for the rare discovery, of round bead nucleated freshwater pearls.

Originally Posted by Bodecia

Nucleation with pearls, especially if tissue cultivated FW pearls, seems to me to be a good way to cultivate SW pearls, at least all of the pearl then would be nacre or very nearly so. Is this a widely held view or only one held by a few and if so do you think it would be preferable and even desirable to beading with shell products or glass beads?

This is a romantic thought, but not really realistic. Round freshwater would have to be used and the cost of nuclei would rise astronomically. Aside from that, a large part of the production would not look as good as the original nucleus.

Originally Posted by Bodecia

Jeremy, thank you for your info on the Chinese Kasumi look-a-likes but if this is so then I don't see how they can be considered inferior to genuine kasumi. I have seen quite a few round white either kasumi or the Chinese equivalent.

The value is strictly based on the rarity. My personal opinion is that Chinese freshwater (if top grade) looks better than nearly everything coming out of Kasumigaura, and the value is much better. I view the Kasumis more as collector items.

[Bodecia]

Hi Caitlin,

Thank you so much for all your advice. And the advice that was given before the full import struck home tonight Also being a beader I can truly appreciate your work and realise too that your love of pearls is ohh so very obvious in the beading that you do. One day (if I am not chucked off because of recent remarks of mine re mea culpa) I hope to be able to send some photos of my work through too. I love designing more than the actual work involved in stringing up as my mind has then jumped on to my next project but the work needs to be done. Unlike you from the sounds of it I cannot draw or draft for nuts and do it all in my mind. It is lucky that I can visualise my designs. I need only make a few minor alterations during the first run of stringing up - on fishing line - and it is ready for the hard work.

My best designing work is done when I lay down to sleep. As I relax I design so many pieces in my head and then hope to have the time to put at least some of them into action. 90% of my designs involve pearls as the major componets or rarely as secondary spacers to the main stones. But I have so very much to learn and now due to Zeide in part I realise I must hit my books again (finding the time?) to become familiar with all the correct Latin terms so I do not have to keep Googling.

I had been finding the bias against cultivated pearls quite daunting as I, unfortunately like most of us, cannot afford to search and pay for totally natural pearls. So although shocked by todays/tonights revolatins found a little relief in it. My beloved SS pearls are not rubbish. I find them beautiful but was influenced by Zeide and wondering how I could have saved up for so long and so hard for so called PPBs..

Most people, I believe, accept the term Natural as meaning Cultivated instead of Imitation, which is a pity and allows some eBay sellers to get away with murder but on the whole eBay is not so bad. I have made very good buys and also bad ones like anyone who buys from eBay. I believe many people do not even realise that Oysters once produced pearls all by themselves and also believe that FW peals are inferior which they are not.

Do you mind me asking why you had a set against all nacre pearls as a youngster? And would you mind telling me what are your favourite pearls and also what are your favourite gemstone beads. I rarely think anymore about gemstones as set into rings. I tend to think of those I can get in bead form. My favourite gemstone beads are garnets in their multi colours and beauty and spinels. Well I guess many more too if I really stop to think about it. In pearls they are so many that this email must be to short to go into them.

I feel blessed to have been born under the sign of Pearls. Maybe it explains in part my love of pearls. SW and FW although I don't think I have ever been given any but I have given myself many ... I also find eBay a great place to search out some beauties that may have been overlooked by others, sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't.

That reminds me. I recently bought/won some Tahitian pearls but of course received FW dyed pearls although in the photo they were clearly Tahitians. I have my complaints to the seller and his responses and the back and forth that went on as a result and if you or Jeremy feel it appropriate I will post them here - not giving the name of the seller - as that would be in-appropriate at this stage. Although I would happily do so in a private email.

I was also very glad to receive Jeremy's email regarding the Chinese look like kasumi pearls. I did and do consider them just as beautiful and really wished to know why they are not on a par with the Japanese pearls. I do wish the Chinese would give them a name so we can all buy without them needing to be passed off as kasumis.

Well that is enough for now and thank you all so much for your answers and help in my early days. I just wish that so much else "mea culpa" had not upset everyone during this time. I also hope that my reaction/s did not upset anyone. I was not really hurt by it although it was truly a shock at first.

Thanks so much and I truly appreciate all the feedback on my questions.

Bodecia

[Caitlin]

Hi Bodecia

I had been finding the bias against cultivated pearls quite daunting

This is a forum and certain people here do have a bias against PPB's and for solid nacre pearls. Let me explain it a little.

All commercial pearls around today are cultured, so this forum can't have a bias against that, it is what we are about- Natural pearls are extremely rare and expensive and cultured pearls bring pearls to the public at affordable prices. The controversy is about bead nucleated pearls, which include akoyas, south sea pearls and tahitians vs. solid nacre pearls. In solid nacre pearls, you have 3 basic choices. Natural wild grown pearls, which are out of sight expensive for most of us, cultured freshwater pearls and keshi, both of which are affordable.

Cultured freshwater pearls and keshi don't have a mother of pearl bead in them, so they pass muster with the connoisseurs of the old fashioned wild natural pearls who strongly believe that the bead is a desecration to their beloved pearls. The old fashioned natural pearl connoisseurs include people from Bahrain and a very few others. Their precious natural pearls have been totally eclipsed by cultured akoyas for almost a hundred years, really, since the Persian Gulf natural pearl business tanked, cultured akoyas came on the market, followed by south sea and Tahitian. Since one or two of them/us found this forum, this point of view finally has a voice for the first time in 100 years.

But, please do not think the opinions of any one person are the opinions of the forum.

[Caitlin]

Hi Bodecia

Do you mind me asking why you had a set against all nacre pearls as a youngster?

Maybe that is a typo because I meant I have a bias for solid nacre pearls.
Here is a link to my family experience of natural Bahraini pearls. I wrote this post a couple of months after I first got to this forum.
Be sure to follow the link to the photo of my granddad with a scale model of his pearling Dhow and a red silk cloth of pearls he obtained from that venture, a brief magazine article which tells more of his story, and two photos of him and my grandmother wearing some of her Bahraini pearls.

[Bodecia]

Caitlin, thank you for re-sharing that with us. Your grandparents must have led very exciting lives. I think you were very generous to give them out to various members of your family. Regardless of the size of the ones you have and have had, I consider them very precious indeed. What a wonderful history to have. You must be very proud of them. My ambition is to one day have a natural pearl. Completely natural, regardless of size. I do have one small pearl set in a platinum ring which looks to be natural or keshi. It is beautiful but very small but I value it highly. So just maybe I already have one. It is a nice thought. The setting looks to me to be from maybe the 1940s or so. I found it on eBay. and I was the only one to bid on it. Not that I picked it up for nothing. The seller was wise enough to start it at $150 if I remember correctly, although if they had started it at $9.99 it may have gone for more in the end. One can never tell.

Please tell us all about the treasures you found/bought at the Tuscan Show.

Thanks, Bodecia

[tacy_cc]

Hi everyone Anastacia here,

I hate to ask anything stupid but i can't seem to follow the jargon although i've been trying to read up from thread to thread so i must ask even though i'm afraid most of you might wince or roll your eyes up and heave in annoyance....what does the acronym PPB mean and what is a dhow? a one-liner explanation will suffice!

Thank you for bearing with newbie me,

Anastacia Catañeda Aoki
www.leaf-jewellery.dk

[jerin]

Originally Posted by tacy_cc

Hi everyone Anastacia here,

I hate to ask anything stupid but i can't seem to follow the jargon although i've been trying to read up from thread to thread so i must ask even though i'm afraid most of you might wince or roll your eyes up and heave in annoyance....what does the acronym PPB mean and what is a dhow? a one-liner explanation will suffice!

Thank you for bearing with newbie me,

Anastacia Catañeda Aoki
www.leaf-jewellery.dk

Anastacia,
PPB stands for pearl plated beads, which means the pearls (often marine pearls) have a core that is a bead from a mussel and than the mollusk is layering this bead with nacre, whereas freshwater pearls are mantle tissue nucleated only (without a bead) and the whole pearls is solid nacre. The bead in the pearl helps the animal to produce round pearls. Freshwater pearls are very often baroque (free form shaped) and only the Freshadama line from Pearl Paradise are very round in their shapes.

A dhow is/was a pearling ship that has been used by Arabs, nowadays there are only a few left, modern times... If You want to know more about a dhow You could google it or read Caitlins post, I think it was under "Natural Pearls".

[Caitlin]

Hi Anastacia
A dhow is an Arab sailing boat boat . I believe the term refers to the lateen sytle of the sails. here is a link to a pic of a scale model of my granddad's pearling dhow.


Here is a pic I googled. (no copyright on this one)

[tacy_cc]

Hello Caitlin and Inge,

Thank you for the kind explanation. I do wonder if PPB is common technological slang, accepted pearl jargon or if it is used in the context of "pearl-slur" and therefore derogatory to certain categories of pearls which are produced by utilizing bead nuclei?

Anastacia Castañeda Aoki
www.leaf-jewellery.dk