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  1. #31
    First-graft Pearl Senior Guide Member
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    Yeah, Wikipedia. The problem with that, from what I understand is anyone can submit an article if there isn't one already on a certain topic. I had the feeling it wasn't really fact checked in general, but only if someone reported a problem. It is sad to think of all the school children using it and getting misinforamtion.

  2. #32
    Pearl Maven Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert Caitlin's Avatar
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    You are correct. It is sad to see bs being spread. Anyone can go in and change it, if one is registered and signed in. I notice there is a bit of feedback about the lack of references in the discussion section.
    Caitlin

    How to hand-knot pearls without a tool

    My avatar is a Sea of Cortez mabe pearl. One of a pair of Mexican handmade earrings.

  3. #33
    Pearl Knotting & Wire Expert Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert knotty panda's Avatar
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    Now hold on here a second. I’m not ready to throw the wiki baby out with the wiki bath water. “Wikipedia” by it’s very definition means a collective, collaborate effort. I do not believe that everyone who edits an article has sinister, “bs” spreading motives. Edits are verified by a staff of librarians. If you have ever been or know a librarian, you better believe they take the responsibility very, very seriously. The encyclopedia Britannica we used as children now contains information that would be considered “bs” when, as children, we were taught it as fact. The internet is a pop culture tool and Wikipedia has brought information to children all over the world who would be without any information at all. No, I can’t condemn them for having delivered an imperfect tool in a world where no tool was available, nor can I call the whole thing “bs”. This is a discussion which belongs on another forum, just as does carbon dating.
    Last edited by knotty panda; 05-30-2007 at 05:14 PM.
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  4. #34
    PearlStruck.com
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    Default The (cultured) Pearl of Lao Tzu

    Well, that's still a really interesting article. I love a good "legend." Ironic that both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein reportedly wanted to purchase The Pearl, a symbol of "how to learn to live respectfully and united harmoniously for peace," even though our tastes and opinions will differ. Something which, according to Chinese legend represents Lao Tzu's mission "to find a path and way for peace."


    Ann
    PearlStruck.com
    Last edited by PearlStruck.com; 05-30-2007 at 06:59 PM.

  5. #35
    Satine De La Courcel
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    Quote Originally Posted by knotty panda
    LOL, Ash, you're a hoot! 60,000,000 clams! LOL.

    I was bored and watching the Flinstones movie could not resist....

    Yes the flinstones movie Told you I was bored!!!!!

    I am really enjoying this thread about the pearl it is not one of my faves.. but the lore and family who is trying to give information to the public about the pearl.. looking foreard to see how it goes and how many more "legends are born" becasue of the information that has come to light.

    back to lurking and doings stuff not in the least related to pearls

    Cheers
    Ash

  6. #36
    Pearl Knotting & Wire Expert Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert knotty panda's Avatar
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    Well, grab your popcorn because the story's about to get better!

    In 1939, in New York City the Pearl was authenticated by Dr. Roy Waldo Miner of the American Museum of Natural History. Victor Barbish learned of The Pearl and in the 1970's he and his partners Henry Kyle, Robert Pease, Johnny Weissmuller (Tarzan), and Rudy Vallee (The Sheik!), offered $10 million dollars to the then owner, Mr. Cobb but he refused the sale.

    After Cobb's death in 1980, Cobb?s family sold the Pearl to Peter Hoffman, a jeweler in Beverly Hills, for $200,000 through Probate. Headlines across the world's newspaper hailed it as a bargain considering its fame and appraisal by famed pearl dealer Lee Sparrow and his San Francisco Gem Laboratory for $4,200,000 at the time of the sale. Appraisals since have valued the pearl from $42,000,000 to $59,000,000 based on it being a unique world treasure.

    Victor Barbish finally acquired half ownership in the Pearl from Hoffman at the time of the Probate sale.

    Now, Mr. Barbish also had some partners, one Mr. Joseph Bonicelli who died approx. 1998. However, after his death, it was discovered that he had placed a hit on his first wife, in the 1970s. The children from that marriage filed a wrongful death suit against their father?s estate asking that the Pearl be sold should they win the wrongful death suit, which they did indeed win.

    However, the case was appealed. Just a couple of weeks ago, the Appeals court upheld that ruling and now the Pearl must be sold and the proceeds divided.

    As a result of that ruling, Plaintiffs' counsel is going to file a Motion to have the Pearl appraised.

    The Defendant has stated they are appealing to the Colorado Supreme Court.

    Skip the Flintstones, Ash, and watch Court TV!
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  7. #37
    Satine De La Courcel
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    Quote Originally Posted by knotty panda
    Well, grab your popcorn because the story's about to get better!

    Skip the Flintstones, Ash, and watch Court TV!
    So I see.... I am of to make pocorn right now, you want butter, salt, plain, parmesean cheese on your's.. LOL

    Chers Ash
    Mental note Boredom and Rednheds do not makegood bedfellows... LOL!!!!

  8. #38
    karipearls
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    Default Pearl For Peace Foundation: Pearl of Allah

    Hi,

    Victor Barbish, owner of the Pearl of Allah, now has a website for his "Pearl for Peace Foundation", a non-profit organization which has various goals including the support of law enforcement agenies.

    And for those joining at certain membership levels, a replica of the Pearl of Allah is given....pretty neat, uh? ...at least for those wanting a replica of the world's largest pearl.

    See: http://pearlforpeace.org


    Kari

  9. #39
    Pearl Maven Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert Caitlin's Avatar
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    This is a discussion which belongs on another forum, just as does carbon dating.
    knotty panda

    Why would you think that? The pearl world is full of intrigue and mystery! And this pearl just reeks of mystery! This forum is here to present the facts of any aspect of pearls. We are the perfect place to discuss this pearl.

    I think I may move this thread to its own "Pearl of Allah: facts and fictions" Thread. In my opinion, in taking into account the accuracy of an story includes looking at all the evidence for the claims. We just happened to hit on something here that stinks to high heaven with false claims of several sorts.

    Edits are verified by a staff of librarians.
    kp

    In a perfect world, maybe. Wikipedia does not have a staff that checks for accuracy; it has other reader/members who can make changes as they see fit. This particular article in the wikipedia is way out of line with wikipedia's own rules of referencing all facts. There are even flags saying it needs to be tended to quickly.

    The excesses in this article will be removed at some point. Or maybe we will be the first to look beneath the surface hype here, to demand proper referencing be done and to remove everything that does not have a least one credible source. We can research it for genuine references and report back.

    I am going to do a thorough google on the subject of this pearl. I have already read the wiki article, and all the references it gave. I went to each website listed. I visited the foundation and read their "legend".

    There are contradictions in every version I have seen so far, and I have not seen enough background material to accept anything except that it it is a giant tridacna clam pearl, weighing and measuring, thus and so.
    Caitlin

    How to hand-knot pearls without a tool

    My avatar is a Sea of Cortez mabe pearl. One of a pair of Mexican handmade earrings.

  10. #40
    Pearl Maven Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert Caitlin's Avatar
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    $60M Pearl of Allah to be sold

    Denver Post



    Colorado Springs - Shrouded in legend and entangled in a lawsuit, the 14-pound gem known as the Pearl of Allah moved a step closer to an eventual sale this week after a key court ruling.
    The Colorado Court of Appeals on Thursday upheld a $32.4 million wrongful death judgment against the estate of Colorado Springs bar owner Joe Bonicelli, who had bought a share of the pearl.
    The ruling clears the way for a probate court to settle Bonicelli's affairs. Three adult children of Bonicelli's first marriage, who filed the lawsuit, have said they want the pearl sold to pay the judgment.
    Appraisers have valued the pearl at up to $60 million, said Richard Tegtmeier, a lawyer representing the three. It is believed to be the largest pearl in the world.
    After Bonicelli died in 1998, the estate - and part-ownership of the pearl - went to his daughter by his second marriage.
    The children from the first marriage filed the suit when they learned after their father died that he was implicated in the shooting death of their mother, Eloise Bonicelli. In 2005, a jury awarded them the $32.4 million.
    Nicolina Angeli Bonicelli, the daughter of Joe Bonicelli's second marriage, appealed the award, saying it was too high and the lawsuit was filed too late, but the state appeals court disagreed.
    In a statement, Nicolina Bonicelli said she was disappointed and that "the system has let me and the citizens down." She declined to say whether she would appeal to the state Supreme Court.
    Tegtmeier called the ruling "very good news." His clients, Michael Bonicelli, Gwendolyn Garris and Donna Fuller, have said they want to establish a foundation in their mother's name to benefit abused children.
    Tegtmeier said the pearl is stored in a Colorado Springs bank.
    He said he would file a motion to have it pearl examined and reappraised.
    Eloise Bonicelli was shot by a suspected intruder in her Colorado Springs home in 1975.
    After Joe Bonicelli's death, police said they determined that his wife's slaying was a contract killing done at his behest. A Colorado Springs barber was convicted of killing Bonicelli's wife and the wife of another man whom Bonicelli had introduced to the barber.
    The origin of the grayish, football-sized lump of pearl is surrounded by legend and myth.
    One story says it was an amulet of Chinese philosopher Lao-Tzu.
    Another says it was lost in a shipwreck centuries ago, then found in 1934 off the Philippines by a diver who drowned when he reached into a huge clam to take it.
    By The Associated Press
    Article Last Updated: 05/04/2007 03:08:48 PM MDT

    How does this aspect relate to the foundation already begun?
    Caitlin

    How to hand-knot pearls without a tool

    My avatar is a Sea of Cortez mabe pearl. One of a pair of Mexican handmade earrings.

  11. #41
    Pearl Maven Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert Caitlin's Avatar
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    Here is another interested party who claims part ownership in the pearl
    PETER HOFFMAN
    owner, Pearl of Allah

    Certified as the World's Largest Pearl,
    replicas of the PEARL have been on display at major world museums.


    the PEARL was discovered May 7, 1934 inside a tridacna clam by a muslim tribe in the Philippines. The tribal chief renamed it the pearl of god or the PEARL of ALLAH.

    This is documented with photos in Natural History, November 1939, the magazine of the American Museum of Natural History.
    Last edited by Caitlin; 06-03-2007 at 11:07 PM.
    Caitlin

    How to hand-knot pearls without a tool

    My avatar is a Sea of Cortez mabe pearl. One of a pair of Mexican handmade earrings.

  12. #42
    Pearl Maven Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert Caitlin's Avatar
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    This article has a little more info:

    Ocean Watch
    Susan Scott


    Giant pearl does not have precious past

    ON Nov. 15, 2002, I wrote a column about pearls that included two sentences about one particular pearl: "The largest pearl ever found came from a Philippine giant clam. Called the pearl of Allah, it measures 9 inches across, weighs nearly 14 pounds and resembles a small brain." I got so much e-mail about that pearl, I later wrote an entire column about it (March 21, 2003).
    To this day, mail concerning the pearl of Allah keeps rolling in from all over the world. Subjects range from secrets about the pearl's powers, to criminal investigations regarding its sale, to conspiracy theories linking the pearl with al-Qaida.
    People are fascinated with this football-size gem.
    I use the word gem loosely. As defined in the dictionary, a gem is "a precious stone cut and polished for ornament." This pearl has not been cut or polished, and its bumpy oblong shape might look interesting but it's not what I would call ornamental.
    The e-mail that got me back on this subject came last week from a reader who sent a link to an Associated Press story about the famous pearl. This Colorado Springs, Colo., report adds a sordid chapter to the pearl's history.
    Joe Bonicelli, a Colorado Springs man described as a bar owner, bought a share of the famous pearl sometime in the past. How much of a share was not reported, but even if the portion was small, Joe must have been running a pretty successful bar. The pearl is supposedly valued at $60 million to $75 million.
    When Joe died in 1998, his daughter from his second marriage inherited the estate, including the pearl share. Children from Joe's first marriage, however, sued the estate when they learned that Joe had hired a barber to shoot and kill his first wife, their mother. (The barber succeeded and is now in jail.)
    Joe's first children won the case, clearing the way to sell the pearl.
    Good luck. The pearl has its own Web site, www.pearlofpeace.com, published by Peter Hoffman. This Beverly Hills jeweler writes that he owns the pearl, and mentions no shareholders. According to Hoffman's site, the pearl is priceless, but he'd part with it for $75 million.
    Who, I wondered, would pay that kind of money for a lumpy nugget of nacre (mother-of-pearl)? The plot thickens -- and sickens.
    Another man, Victor Barbish, claims to own 66 percent of the pearl. In 1999, he says, individuals from "the bin Laden group" tried to buy the pearl for Osama to give as a gift to Saddam Hussein. They offered $60 million. Barbish refused and reported the incident to the FBI, who kept it a secret.
    The Web site reporting this terrorist link to the pearl of Allah is not a reliable one, but it illustrates the wide range of stories about the pearl that continue to circulate.
    Since its discovery in 1934, this lopsided lump has generated a long list of goofy tales. But it does have one legitimate claim to fame: its size. The pearl of Allah is the largest pearl ever found.
    That means it came from a giant among giants. Giant clams are the largest of all mollusks, and the one that laid down this pearl must have been big and beautiful.
    To me, as remarkable as a 14-pound pearl is the marine animal that made it. I'd rather have the clamshell.


    Marine science writer Susan Scott can be reached at www.susanscott.net.
    Caitlin

    How to hand-knot pearls without a tool

    My avatar is a Sea of Cortez mabe pearl. One of a pair of Mexican handmade earrings.

  13. #43
    Pearl Knotting & Wire Expert Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert knotty panda's Avatar
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    I meant a discussion of the pros and cons of Wiki and carbon-dating which really aren't pearl related would be better elsewhere and not taking up precious forum space here.

    Welp, I had to work all day so I didn't really have time to pursue this subject of the "pearl" that is, but it's really on my mind. "I've grown accustomed to it's face" LOL. Yeah, I know, really creepy.

    I've been in touch with Mr. Barbish through Pearl for Peace and several of the newspapers in the Denver area. Yes, Mr. Barbish purchased half ownership of the Pearl at the probate sale with Mr. Hoffman. I think I had mentioned that in a prior post, maybe not. I have not attempted to contact Mr. Hoffman. To my knowledge, he is not a member of the Pearl for Peace Organization.

    There's a couple of things which might break in the next week to 10 days and I'm on top of those. But yes, Caitlin, I'd love to see this in a thread all by itself. I hate that it detracts from all the other wonderful pearls!

    Hey, Ash! Extra butter! Sea Salt! YUM, YUM!
    Last edited by knotty panda; 06-01-2007 at 01:31 AM.
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  14. #44
    Pearl Knotting & Wire Expert Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert knotty panda's Avatar
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    Caitlin: You asked how the Pearl for Peace Organization relates to the Pearl itself. The organization supports law enforcement groups, police, etc. Mr. Barbish's brother, I believe, was employed by the FBI, so they have close family ties to law enforcement. He coupled that with the need to have the pearl working for something more valuable than it's intrinsic value.
    _______________________________________
    Ok, now I'm confusing my owners. It was Cobb's brother who was the FBI guy.

    Barbish met, get this, J. Edgar Hoover and Al Capone at Joe's Stone Crabs in Miami having a friendly little dining experience together. (Believe that?) It was then he decided to become a G-man, only things didn't work out that way. So the foundation was set up to support law enforcement which is in line with the amulet's purpose of 3-guys living harmoniously together.

    I read a few days that the amulet was carved from jade. Can you imagine? Pearl-plated Jade! Be still my heart!
    Last edited by knotty panda; 06-02-2007 at 04:54 PM.
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  15. #45
    Pearl Maven Senior Pearl-Guide.com Pearl Expert Caitlin's Avatar
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    I don't get it. They are going tro sell the pearl and use the money for law enforcement? Or is it the McGuffin to attract paid membership? If so, Kari's first and only post is suspiciously like a soft sell on membership.

    How does the pearl itself fit into this. It appears that other heirs want it sold, so it is tied up in the courts.

    I spent hours last night reading all the references in the wiki article and I went about 10 pages deep into Google. I also googled for news articles. Every single article uses one of the other articles for its reference material, or the article from wiki. there simply is no primary source material except a copy of an appraisal.

    I hve not seen an iota of evidence for making the jump from the found "pearl of Allah" to the so-called "lost pearl of Lao Tse" The appraisal only mentions where it was found and its weight, yet it was privy to other appraisals and the lab report.

    The foundation's article clearly calls the connection to China a legend and there isn't any evidence of any rubbings of this pearl. The foundation's article has no references whatsoever and the references at the wiki site are pathetic. They cite the Pearl guide Forum, for proof of its weight. The foundation needs to reference any and all claims made in the article. As the article is, it never states that any of it is fact.

    Among the articles claiming the pearl was in process as a gift from BinLaden to Sadam Hussian is unprovable. The man Barbish cited as initiating the deal, denied it to the article's author. So that really shouldn't count as proof he did something he said he didn't do, yet this article is given as a reference. Apparently there is a suit over that, too.

    In school I was taught, "Give credit where credit is due" That means you must use valid references in a factual article.

    BTW, who has the inside dope on Barbish? The wiki article contained information not available anywhere else about Barbish's feelings and planned actions. It had to have been written by someone very close to Barbish as there are no references about where that material came from either. Nowhere in print, I'll wager.

    Honestly, I think all reerences to the legend of Lao Tse should be removed from ALL copy. It is unprovable and the way it is written up, credulous people and children would think it is "real"

    BTW knotty, I am glad you are checking things out re this story.
    Last edited by Caitlin; 06-02-2007 at 02:44 AM.
    Caitlin

    How to hand-knot pearls without a tool

    My avatar is a Sea of Cortez mabe pearl. One of a pair of Mexican handmade earrings.