Buyer and Seller Responsibilities Regarding Shipping

[khanzy]

Hi all,

I was just hoping maybe I could get some clarification about the expectations of this community of pearl lovers, buyers and sellers alike, when it comes to responsibility of the buyer and the seller in the event that the goods are lost by the carrier. With the variety of business types using shipping services from all over the world represented on this thread, what are your thoughts on the matter? What are your experiences?

I recently made a relatively large purchase of a lot of pearls from which I was to select the ones I liked. I had paid for all of the pearls in advance with good faith that the seller would accept returns of the pearls I did not like. Unfortunately the entire shipment was lost by the mail carrier on its way TO me. I was not offered any particular shipping options, just that the seller suggested signature confirmation which I agreed to. Come to find out, the seller had not placed insurance on the package other than the automatic $50 that came with the shipping service- not that I could file a claim for it because I was not the shipper.

When I contacted the seller, they expressed that once the package was dropped off at USPS, it was not longer their responsibility and was "out of [their] hands". I was shocked because at least in my experience as a buyer, especially of online goods, the seller is responsible for making sure the goods reach the buyer. In the event of a carrier mishap, it is up to the seller to absorb the costs and file the claim (and add the necessary insurance)- so if an item gets lost, the seller issues a refund, then files a claim with the carrier to recover to costs.

Apparently, this is not a universal belief in the world of online commerce? Shipment and delivery are very different things. I am feeling very disillusioned about it because in my experience I have always had very secure transactions with online retailers that have a system in place to compensate the buyer in the event of non-delivery. Because at the end of the day a buyer cannot pay for what s/he didn't receive, can s/he? At least that was what I had thought until this debacle....

So I ask you PG-ers, buyers and sellers alike, is there no consensus of who has to suffer when a carrier fails? (I was under the impression that as a seller, you are enlisting the services of a third party to deliver your goods, you are technically responsible for this third party. Just like everyone else you hire to complete your job.)

What are your expectations when it comes to the perils of purchasing online?

 

[GemGeek]

If you purchased on eBay - forget it. I have gone above and beyond to get the seller to let me pay for insurance whenever the dollar amount is significant and I have refused to purchase otherwise. They don't want the hassle if it goes astray. I am really sorry to hear about your trouble. Maybe it will still show up.

 

[ckrickett]

How did you pay? Was it paypal, a CC, bank wire? In some cases you can get your money back if you can prove you didn't receive them and there was negligence on the sellers side. Be aware that if you can get your money back it can take several weeks or several months depending on the amount.

 

[waimeamomi]

I won't ship without insurance. Period. I charge it to the recipient and it is part of shipping costs. If you were buying on memo (look then return, you should pay for shipping and insurance. When I buy on memo I pay for insurance on the return, even if it's not required. I wouldn't purchase without insurance and I'm not going to ship without it.

 

[jshepherd]

It's almost always the seller's responsibility, not yours. You never took receipt of the goods. You paid for something you did not receive. If you paid via credit card, it's a simple telephone call to your credit card provider. Paypal would be simple as well. It's always the sellers responsibility to get the goods to you.

If you paid by check, money order or bank wire, it will be more difficult and you might lose. If you didn't agree to FOB origin, the vendor should still be responsible, but it could be hard to force collection. Then again, if the vendor is an online dealer ... you are here for a reason.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

The seller is responsible to get it to you, not just to ship it.

Insurance is for the seller's benefit, not yours-- it enables the seller to get a refund from the carrier if the item is broken or lost en route to you, so that after he refunds you, he can get a refund himself by filing an insurance claim.

If you paid by PayPal, open a case for "item not received." You will be told how long you have to escalate the claim, and in the meantime you are supposed to try to work it out with the seller. Don't miss your deadlines!

Escalating means you have given up efforts to resolve the problem and you're turning the resolution of the case over to PayPal. After you escalate, PayPal will give the seller 10 days to reply to the case. Unless the seller can prove receipt with a delivery confirmation showing delivery to your zip code (or signature confirmation if the value is over $250), PayPal will make the seller refund you. This is why sellers who accept PayPal should always be sure they purchase delivery/signature confirmation.

If the confirmation number shows delivery to your zip code but you didn't get it, it is no longer the seller's problem. In that case you'd need to check with the carrier, with your neighbors etc.

If you paid by credit card, file a claim for non-receipt with your credit card.

 

[pattye]

Khanzy, so sorry to hear this is happening to you! Of course, there is always the possibility the package will still show up. But I do agree with the advice to file a claim with paypal or credit card if possible. As a seller, I have on occasion called the buyers post office. If there is tracking on the package, it will be automatically scanned a number of times in its journey.

Agree with Sheryl, as a seller, I always ship with insurance and above a certain value, signature also.

 

[amti]

Gosh, I'm so sorry... I hope the package shows up! I purchase a lot online and almost every seller I have bought from uses tracking. If the tracking shows an item is delivered, then it becomes my problem. I have not had anything broken in a while, but when something did break, we paid for insurance (it was a laptop and we paid $30 for shipping, handling, and insurance per the seller) and the seller refunded our money because they forgot to buy the insurance and shipped in an unpadded box. Or rather, ebay/paypal forced the seller to return our money when we filed a claim. See if the seller shipped with tracking and see if the package can be located. And verify the address. I recently made a stupid mistake and had something shipped to my daughter 400 miles away, at her old college dorm address. I called the dorm, the university mail room, my daughter and managed to locate the package and have her get it. Good luck!

 

[GemGeek]

Look at all this great advice! Maybe it's not a dire situation after all.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

Whoever is sending the item is responsible for its safe arrival, and liable for the loss if it doesn't arrive safely.

This means that if the buyer is returning merchandise, the buyer becomes the one responsible to insure and track it, or risk taking the loss.

 

[pearlescence]

If you don't get what you paid for that's a simple breach of contract. You have provided what is called consideration - money - so you have fulfilled your side of the deal. They have not supplied their consideration - the pearls.
In Europe it is the seller's responsibility to get the goods to the buyer. No arrive = refund or replacement. That's the law here but may not be in the US.
That's the only issue which concerns you. The seller's relationship with the shipper/claiming for loss - that is the shipper's problem. It is a separate contract between them and nothing to do with you. In law you are a third party in that contract (just like with car insurance), even if you pay for the insurance.

 

[Pearl Dreams]

It's the same in the USA, Wendy.

 

[Katbran]

All good advice. That said I've had packages from India take 2 months to arrive and the same with China. Sometimes it just wanders around the system for awhile ... or sits on the floor somewhere. It may show up yet. I'm sorry this happened to you as it's pretty frustrating. Best of luck !

 

[khanzy]

Hi everyone,

Thank you for the advice- this has been and is still an ongoing absolute nightmare... Here's the timeline of events. I can say that I am finding out all these rules from carriers, PayPal, and my bank that complicate things

Dec 23 USPS notice left
Dec 24 went to local USPS office, they couldn't find package
Dec 26, 28, 30... Called USPS, they couldn't find package on multiple days. At this point I am pretty sure it's a lost package. Officially, USPS cannot declare a package lost on their tracking update until 30 days from the date the package was supposed to be shipped. In addition, if a notice is left, 14 days have to pass by until they "attempt" to return the lost item to the sender. So I was told that they would verbally corroborate if anyone called to investigate the lost package or provide letter if need be.
Dec 26 I emailed the seller letting them know about the status of the package. I was incensed by the reply I received. Excellent customer service with choice comments like "If the post office lost the package while it was being delivered to you, that’s completely out of my hands." and "I upheld my side of the deal. I sent the pearls when they were supposed to be sent and the tracking proves this." They even ended their reply asking me to "let [them] know why you think this is [their] fault?". Needless to say, I had different expectations of the online buying-selling relationship so I felt betrayed.
At this point, it was clear the seller did not see this as their responsibility and was not interested in issuing a refund, period, so I took it to PayPal. Which is a whole other post in itself...to be continued...

 

[khanzy]

I filed a PayPal dispute/claim of non-delivery with the belief that Purchase Protection would reimburse me for my costs. The tracking status of the package at this point is "Notice left" but I provided the details as to USPS reporting rules and said they could call my local office to confirm this. 12/30 was the day I opened the claim with PayPal. As of today, I am still communicating with them because they closed my case on two different occasions. The first time, they apparently didn't read or confirm any of my statements about my package status or contact me for information, they just closed it on the premise of the original tracking status. I had to call them and send messages to several different PayPal customer service forms just to have them reopen the case. That is when they informed me that for purchases under $750 a notice left is all that is required to prove delivery, not signature confirmation- never mind that my package was originally sent with signature confirmation. They also informed me that they needed documentation and not just verbal confirmation that the package was lost from USPS (which is what they neglected to tell me before the CLOSED the case). As soon as I found out, the next day I called USPS to obtain that letter. And since I had been working with them back and forth since Dec 24, they knew exactly what was going on and I was able to pick up that letter the same day. I emailed a photo of it to my claims processing while I was still at the post office. That was yesterday afternoon.

Can you guess my reaction upon waking up to see that my case has (once again) been closed, this time PayPal closed the case seemingly without reviewing any of the details, simply stating, "The seller has provided valid tracking information on the above case. As a result, your appeal can not be granted at this time. "

!!!!

"Tracking information", "notice left", "shipment", "dropping off the package at the carrier"... does not a delivery make!

 

[khanzy]

As for requesting a chargeback from my bank, that was a really quick "no". Come to find out that since I used PayPal by linking my account number and electronic routing number (ACH) the bank cannot issue a chargeback for merchandise paid with that method. That is good to know! At least unlike PayPal they had the heart to just deny me outright rather than lead me on a now-almost-month-long wild goose chase for my money back.
Additionally, PayPal had the rule that they could be the only one investigating a claim- meaning you can't open both a chargeback and a PayPal claim at the same time or PayPal would close their claim. So I didn't try with my bank until PayPal had closed my case the first time. Not that it made a difference in the end. But I just wanted to illuminate how many rules and restrictions exist that hamper consumer rights.

 

[pearlescence]

Legally it sounds as if USPS has been negligent and lost the parcel after a failed delivery attempt. Claiming on that is the responsibility of the shipper who will have to claim against their post service and that post service will claim against the USPS. It isn't up to you to claim since you are a third party.
For paypal to say (as I read your post) that leaving a notice to say that an item hasn't been delivered counts as delivery is beyond risable.
Your problem is that the seller is in a different jurisdiction so suing on that contract will be difficult. Who knows whether the seller can sue their postal system?
You might be able to sue paypal though......
Jurisdiction is always a problem when making international contracts.

 

[khanzy]

Legally it sounds as if USPS has been negligent and lost the parcel after a failed delivery attempt. Claiming on that is the responsibility of the shipper who will have to claim against their post service and that post service will claim against the USPS. It isn't up to you to claim since you are a third party.
For paypal to say (as I read your post) that leaving a notice to say that an item hasn't been delivered counts as delivery is beyond risable.
Your problem is that the seller is in a different jurisdiction so suing on that contract will be difficult. Who knows whether the seller can sue their postal system?
You might be able to sue paypal though......
Jurisdiction is always a problem when making international contracts.

The seller is in the US though not on the contiguous US, not that that excludes them from jurisdiction. I was pretty much appalled by their flippant response to my problem. This entire experience has really removed the glow of buying pearls online especially on etsy, which is a shame because he had quality loose pearls which is nigh impossible to locate in the northeast where I am. My previous purchases have always gone with slight hitches (wonky drilling, undrilled pearls sent when drilled requested) but every time I decided the pearls were worth it. Jewelry shows sell whole strands wholesale and never break apart their lots, at least for "small" buyers like me who are just working on a couple of projects.

 

[JerseyPearl]

I am so sorry you are going through these difficulties. Have you left negative feedback on the seller's profile? That's an option. I have had packages turn up after weeks of "lost" status. Rather than going to USPS customer service, I would go down to the main branch of your post office and ask to see or speak to your local postmaster. Was it shipped in a small priority mail box? Was it in an envelop? The mail carrier who left the note should also be identified...if they are your regular carrier, why not ask them what happened to the package? Maybe they still have it on the truck. A little sleuthing might help it to turn up. I know you shouldn't have to do this, but unfortunately, our mail carriers are human, and do make mistakes.

 

[jshepherd]

Excellent customer service with choice comments like "If the post office lost the package while it was being delivered to you, that’s completely out of my hands." and "I upheld my side of the deal. I sent the pearls when they were supposed to be sent and the tracking proves this." They even ended their reply asking me to "let [them] know why you think this is [their] fault?". Needless to say, I had different expectations of the online buying-selling relationship so I felt betrayed.
At this point, it was clear the seller did not see this as their responsibility and was not interested in issuing a refund, period, so I took it to PayPal. Which is a whole other post in itself...to be continued...

This is concerning and should be addressed with the seller.

Technically the vendor is right. It isn't their fault. But that doesn't mean it isn't their responsibility. It absolutely is their full responsibility to get the package to you. USPS and other carriers rarely lose packages, but it does happen. It's absolutely the responsibility of the vendor to make certain that the package is insured if the value is too high for them to "eat" if it gets lost.

A vendor cannot, in my opinion, be considered trusted if they don't take responsibility when things go wrong. Everybody is great when things go right. The way the situation is handled when things go wrong is so much more important.

I still think you should stick with it with PayPal. PayPal is notoriously difficult to deal with because you're dealing with one department handling thousands of complaints as quickly as possible so they just glance and move on, but they usually come through for the buyer, which is one reason so many sellers hate them.