Yokota Pearls

[Honey_and_Lemon]

Caitlin, I've been lurking on pearl guide for a while, before I started posting. I learned about Pearl guide while looking for info about buying pearls on eBay about year ago.

I asked about Yokata, because on eBay they have some buy it now auctions for akoya strands in the mid four digits. Given all the issues with buying on eBay from international sellers, that is not the sort of thing you buy lightly. Hence I asked on Pearl-guide if anyone had any experience with them.

Honestly, I'm not sure where all of your paranoia comes from, real John Birch society stuff, with conspiracy's dating back to the 1950s.

I'm not questioning Hanadama pearls at all. I just found it interesting that whereas at the US vendors the Hanadama strands are the top of the line, at yokota, they are offering to get you an optional Hanadama certificate (for $75) on strands they call AA and some they call AAA.

That is all.

[Caitlin]

I agree. Certainly not all of the best akoya pearls are certified hanadamas. But less than the best should not be. My only point....

[Caitlin]

I am alarmed at the conclusions to which you have leaped. I did not use the word conspiracy, unless all business relationships are conspiracies. It is not John Birch stuff and there are no conspiracies! It is pearl philosophies and POV's which I thought I made clear. My apologies. But I doubt you looked closely at my carefully considered words before jumping to conclusions.

For example, We have on this forum Kojima pearls' Sarah. Kojimas's pearl mentor, Fuji Voll, came from a family who lived in Japan for years, starting when Fuji was 14, in the 50's, and built relationships with Japanese pearl producers. Fuji's family was not the only one there at the time, either. Back in the 50's was when akoyas were just beginning to explode in sales and the pioneer families that were there first, made deep connections that have lasted to this day.

I am sorry I did not take time out to explain pearl history to you so you would not make such assumptions. I am not sorry, actually, I expect you to know what you are talking about before you throw loaded words about. I am irritated you developed an opinion and criticized my remarks, rather than asking question to clarify your lack of pearl history knowledge. And that kind of insulting dialogue is not the standard here.

Pearls are deep and mysterious and you would not believe the intrigues over the ages.

This is not one of those, it is different suppliers in Japan in competition with each other and different large buyers in the US who inherit the politics of their Japanese sellers.

There is one seller whose name I do not care to publicize who has had this hanadama thing clogging up his nose for years and has tried to blow his dammed nose on other sellers for years. If you were a pearl-guide historian and read lots of old threads, you would know this.

As a 7 time poster who acts like an expert while remaining anonymous, (That is rather cowardly, don't you think?) I think you might already know it and are blowing your nose, too. Otherwise, you are way, way out of your depth as far as pearl history and anthropology go.

[GemGeek]

Caitlin, there are reasons why you could be misreading Yokota.

There are quality differences among Hanadama strands - a spread just like he said. And they are certified by Japan Pearl Science Laboratory. I've seen higher quality certified hanadamas than Jeremy has, but they are way more expensive. The pearls in the photo look awesome, by the way.

Jeremy often has AAA akoya pearls that are good enough to send to Japan Science Laboratory to certify as Hanadama, but he doesn't because it's a pain in the rump. That is why a seller may offer to have akoyas certified as part of a purchase. There are sellers that have pearls that would be top-end Hanadamas, but it's so obvious that they don't bother to have them certified. I actually had someone laugh at me when I suggested it. I hope this helps explain.

The PP natural whites are amazing and I highly recommend them as they are priced extremely well and you can be sure you are getting unbleached and unpinked beauties.

P.S. As soon as I saw "John Birch" I knew you'd go ballistic.

[Caitlin]

I am saying he says he is of the school that insists the word hanadama means nothing, even while he sells necklaces of lower than top AAA quality with that name. http://www.yokota-pearl.co.jp/english/hanadama.html

Why is no one hearing what I am saying?

That really muddies the water when other people think it is only for the top end of AAA or sellers who only certify the top end. Only some people want certified hanadama and those people want the top end of AAA certified as hanadama.

He did not discuss the various labs he mentioned or what their individual standards for giving the label are. Until he said 'labs' plural, I thought there was just one lab.

And while you are here, is the GIA privately owned? or it is a "public appraisal" lab? I suppose that means govt funded. If it is privately owned, he discounts it as legitimate.

In any case, no one has disparaged the company, just the way the term hanadama is used by the company.

I didn't think I went ballistic; my heart never speeded up. I was just annoyed that I was compared to fascists in a challenge instead of just being asked to clarify.

In any case, I thought I was clear, but I do not mind people asking instead of reaching absurd conclusions, then posting those.

[Caitlin]

Honestly Honey and Lemon, it is you that started the conspiracy stuff.
A reaction that added nothing to the conversation except to try make me react and feel defensive.

I am done explaining myself. Just read what I said.

You asked for an explanation of the lower grades being labeled handama and I gave it to you- even while very aware that it is an explosive subject for that camp who disparages the term.

And guess what, you are the one who jumped the logic train and started using loaded language that could not be farther from the truth.

[Sea Urchin]

[QUOTE=Caitlin;92271]I am saying he says he is of the school that insists the word hanadama means nothing, even while he sells necklaces of lower than top AAA quality with that name. http://www.yokota-pearl.co.jp/english/hanadama.html

Why is no one hearing what I am saying?

That really muddies the water when other people think it is only for the top end of AAA or sellers who only certify the top end. Only some people want certified hanadama and those people want the top end of AAA certified as hanadama.

He did not discuss the various labs he mentioned or what their individual standards for giving the label are. Until he said 'labs' plural, I thought there was just one lab.

And while you are here, is the GIA privately owned? or it is a "public appraisal" lab? I suppose that means govt funded. If it is privately owned, he discounts it as legitimate.

In any case, no one has disparaged the company, just the way the term hanadama is used by the company.

***********
Assuming anyone is invited to join in this discussion, I understood what you said perfectly, Caitlin, and can't refute your logic.

[Caitlin]

I am tempted to link to an earlier discussion. But it mentions a company name I do not wish to publicize. This one is a step up from previous questions on the subject, because it is a Japanese source who operates on the same philosophy.

We are not the source of the conflict and I predicted what would happen before I ever started my first answer.

[Caitlin]

Here is what they say, language notwithstanding:

Recently, Hanadama Certificate appeared.
But each Laboratories issue Hanadama certificates are not public appraisal organizations, but just a private companies.
And they set their own "Hanadama grade" which are different from the original meaning mentioned above.

I thought they meant plural. It certainly seems so.

They may use the same lab, but it appears there are others as well. That was what I was asking for specifics about, much earlier

[Honey_and_Lemon]

I'm with you Gemgeek. All I wanted to know was if anyone had bought from Yokota pearls, and if they liked what they bought. Jeweljunke answered that question (she has even more photo's in her photo portfolio, its an impressive strand.)

You've answered my question about why they are selling "AA" and "AAA" strands both with optional Hanadama certificate. It's a cultural thing, clearly they are comfortable that their AA and AAA strands would get the certification if they were submitted to the JPSL.

It actually brings up an interesting point, as Yokota further subdivides their AA class into three grades, all available with optional Hanadama certificate.

[Caitlin]

GemGeek said:

There are quality differences among Hanadama strands - a spread just like he said. And they are certified by Japan Pearl Science Laboratory. I've seen higher quality certified hanadamas than Jeremy has, but they are way more expensive. The pearls in the photo look awesome, by the way.

Jeremy often has AAA akoya pearls that are good enough to send to Japan Science Laboratory to certify as Hanadama, but he doesn't because it's a pain in the rump.

your question:

Does anyone have experience with Yokota Pearls (http://www.yokota-pearl.co.jp/english/e-index.htm)?

They have a few ebay auctions up, for high dollar akoya strands and a website with some very nice Akoya strands up. They claim to be offering several grades of AA akoya, as well as necklaces priced at several layers above their Hanadama necklaces.

that's what you asked.

Gem Geek said nothing about certifying other grades than AAA, so I don't see how she answered your question. She ONLY talked about AAA.

And certifying those other grades is what is the problem. It makes a hash of the hanadama designation. And that is the problem.

[pearlescence]

Hanadama is a certification that specific pearls meet a specific standard as specified by the Pearl Science Laboratory in Japan. (and possibly other labs) Hanadama is probably a trade name or brand owned by them in the way that the pearls could be called Absofabuluso grade if I set up a pearl lab and started examining pearls against a set of criteria. It costs something around $75 for that examination.
If a pearl meets the criteria and the owner pays the fee then the certificate is issued.
We know that there is tremendous variation in pearl gradng. an AAA pearl strand can have marks, some pearls can be off round, the lustre needn't be stupendous. Some sellers start talking about AAAAAA+++++ and that is silly, even for the finest, roundest shiniest pearls. Responsible sellers grade those pearls still AAA and throw in a metallic rider. There are pearls above AAA metallic though..there is mirror metallic.
So...some sellers get Hanadama certificates for every possible akoya pearl and (pass on the cost in their pricing no doubt) and some of the pearls which meet the certification standard may be gradable as AA+. While others don't bother because it bumps up the price, and yet some more offer it as an option.
Just as there are various pearl labs around the world, all pobably using slighly different criteria for assessing pearls, so there may, it seems be different Hanadama certifying labs. The point that unless it is a goverment lab and therefore without commercial pressures it can be argued that the certificate is not of great value is a valid one, because commercial pressure will apply to get pearls certified (all those $75s.) People won't send pearls in to the lab if they don't get a certificate. Who is going to send their pearls in and pay $75 when they don't et a certificate. So little by little the standard drops.
It may well be that the Hanadama certification is worthless in reality but it is still hanging in there as the perceived top standard. Just as I argued years ago here that natural pearl certification is worthless when it is so hard to tell the difference between natural river pearls and some cultured (I mean, obviously you can tell between naturals and bead nucleated).
A practiced eye can tell just about as much

[GemGeek]

If a strand of akoyas is certified as Hanadama by Japan Pearl Science Laboratory, it is Hanadama-grade because it meets the minimum standards. If someone's AA strand met the standards, then they have an odd grading system. The only laboratory recognized as certifying Hanadamas is Japan Pearl Science Laboratory. Guidelines are issued (FTC, Cibjo), but people selling pearls can call their pearls any grade they want as long as there is no authority with the power to police them.

GIA is a non-profit institute.

[GemGeek]

Oh and a company does use the name Hanadama, but they sell all kinds of pearls so it's meaningless as a brand name.

[GemGeek]

Yokota must use AA Hanadama as a designation that it's a mid-level Hanadama grade. It's obvious from the photos that the pearls are very fine quality. It's hard to imagine having enough pearls to distinguish the subtleties.