[Pearl_dreams]

Never mind, I just read their statement about their silk:

YLI offers more colors, more sizes and more varieties of silk ribbon and accessories than anyone in the world. YLI Silk Ribbon is pure 100% filament silk, not the less expensive spun silk. There is a big difference. Stitchers worldwide tell us that not only can they see a difference, but our ribbon has a feel and stitchability that imitations cannot match. YLI Silk Ribbon is colorfast and can be dry-cleaned and hand washed. Our unique plastic reel assures no creased ribbon and provides convenient storage during a project or to save unused ribbon for future use.
http://www.ylicorp.com/ (and selecting the silk page from the sidebar)

Presumably those qualities are the reasons for your preference of their product.

[knotty panda]

Originally Posted by Pearl_dreams

Presumably those qualities are the reasons for your preference of their product.

LOL, I wish I could say I tested several brands and in my expert opinion ... LOL. Not at all. Griffin sucks. I bought one card of Gudebrod and hated that too. I knew about YLI because I love silk ribbon embroidery so I looked on the website. It worked for the way I knot. Third time's the charm

Go to the needlework link on the left of website, that will give you a list of threads. Click on silk thread. Scroll all the way down. The 1000 Denier is the buttonhole twist thread I use for knotting. BTW, don't buy the metallic -- one failed design project. Looked good -- in my head, but that's it.

[Pearl_dreams]

Great color selection there! Could you summarize for us again how you prep the silk? I know I've seen a post about this somewhere but I don't know where!

Oh, and all I've ever done is iron the silk to get the creases out of it-- I've only used the kind on the card with the needle attached. I have no idea if ironing it (low temp) is good or bad but it made it easier to work with.

[knotty panda]

I think ironing is a wonderful idea! If I can find my ironing board, one day, I'm gonna try it. Steam, pressure, and PULL! With the beeswax, I put the front end of the thread on the beeswax, press down with my thumb nail, grab with thread with my chain nose, and pull. After it makes a groove in the beeswax, which doesn't take but a second, I keep my thumb on it and keep pulling. I work it hard about 3 times because I'm stretching it. I probably wax it too much.

[jerin]

Hi everyone,

I do my necklaces with both silk, Detolon and Power Pro. I have never done anything with my silk before stringing but it doesn´t matter because I just will restring a necklace if it is needed. I am not wearing a single strand more than 1 week at the same time as I want to wear my other pearls as well for humidity reasons...and the different look, of course.

Still I think Pearl-Dreams suggestion was the best, two bracelets, strung by the same person and worn under the same conditions at a certain time has to be the most scientific way to get a result that is correct.

Anyway, my Detolon knots are very tiny, I strung all my Exotics with it.

And so far every one of silk-strung necklaces looks fine and has not stretched - but I am particular not to hang them but put them on something that can give support to the pearls...

[Caitlin]

Still I think Pearl-Dreams suggestion was the best, two bracelets, strung by the same person and worn under the same conditions at a certain time has to be the most scientific way to get a result that is correct.

This is still knotty's idea and her challenge.

Since I am just a lowly beader, I do things like hang about 20 pearl necklaces in the bathroom right where Kether and I can grab some each morning. I also hang another 20 or so necklaces above my work table as I finish them, until Kether sells them. I like to hang my pearls, so I adjust my thread to match my style.

I may be old, but I am usually open to new ideas techniques and threads. I try to stay unburdened by presuppositions- and that includes silk thread. I respect Bernadette's opinion and it gave me courage to do what is clearly going against the tide of popular opinion about silk.

(If you haven't read Bernadette's posts, she is a professional pearl knotter, has done it for a living for years, worked for the Paspaleys and knows their secret invisible knotting technique, which she won't share- She has recently shared that she uses 4-6 threads, regular beading needles and prefers a nylon thread.)

I like that 4-6 threads Idea. Think I'll try it.

[knotty panda]

Well, gang. What's it going to be? I have a daily bracelet, AA quality, 7-7.5 MM, 25 pearls, so you have an idea of the weight. I'm fairly brutal with it compared to all y'all. I made last May or so. I measured it the other day and I actually think it's shrunk. Or ---

I can knot something I can be totally brutal with. I'm thinking about Swarovski crystals since they are supposed to have the same specific gravity as real pearls. But their drill holes are huge, 1MM, so I'm not sure I can knot that big. But I'm open for other suggestions if anyone has any.

The difference being, one has now become a part of me, conformed to my wrist and a newly knotted piece will need some breaking in.

So, let me know!

-------------------------
This is regarding invisible knotting. I have written and rewritten this post and I’m just not sure what I should and shouldn’t include. So, rather than saying too much, I’m going to say too little. What’s that called, erring on the side of caution? If you don’t like knotting as much as I do, you’re going to find this to be a real snoozefest anyway.

I’ve seen two different descriptions of the purpose of having invisible knotting. One is to have smaller knots, consequently called the “hidden knot” technique. The other goal is to minimize stretch, not eliminate it entirely.

I find it hard to believe that a company who has a reputation for using only the finest quality components in their products would use a stringing material that doesn’t meet that criteria. I also find it hard to believe a company would want to completely eliminate all stretch as not having stretch creates undue abrasion between the pearls.

My conclusion is a surgeon’s knot or some variation thereof might be a solution. Surgeon’s knots are long and lean. The majority of the knot can be concealed under the pearl with only the center of the knot exposed, in essence, a single strand of thread. Surgeon’s knots are used to minimize stretch. And, silk is/was a suturing material.

Now, on to why I don’t believe “no stretch” is a bad thing. I’ve posted about this before.

My interest in moving past the overhand technique is it is inadequate for the larger pearls strung on short strands, such as 16”. Market research on trends indicates pearl size, bigger, is what consumers want. I think this is borne out even in our little community.

The larger pearls create a smaller circumference when worn. Where a 16” 5MM strand might fit right on the collar bones, a strand of 13MM pearls would have to be longer to comfortably fit the same area of the neck. However, a small knot spacer on the 13MM strand will be worthless in minimizing pearl friction as the pearls now touch each other higher. Also, there is pull when the strand is placed on the neck. The space created between the drill holes on the 13MM strand is greater than the space created between the drill holes on the 5MM strand. If there is absolutely no stretch in the stringing material, the necklace wouldn’t lie properly.

So, with the larger pearls, you have a larger area of abrasion to counteract, and smaller knots don’t solve this problem. You have to balance the length of the strand, with the size of the pearls, and the spacer size. (Pearl math!)

Right now, I personally like rondelles which effectively solve the problem both physically and aesthetically. You have a larger, more attractive spacer, the pearls no longer knock themselves against each other, and you can conceal knots to your heart’s content beneath.

Having said all that, there is a self-knotting thread which could very well solve those problems as well. Right now it’s cost-prohibitive as it’s made for another application. I made a prototype which makes me think it’s a sound concept, but it’s just a prototype.

[GemGeek]

Originally Posted by knotty panda

Also, I have some information about Paspaley invisible/no stretch knotting I think you might find interesting but I have to get the information together. Stay tuned.

Muah hah ha!!!

[Perle]

Hmm, Paspaley secrets? I might have to learn to knot after all!

Perle

[Bernadette]

Thanks Caitlin for the wrapup -but a minor correction is needed - I dont use Nylon - in fact I detest it (But as my hubby keeps arguing technology changes everything and Nylon today isnt the same as Nylon of yesterday).

But to get back to my thread of choice - it is a polycotton blend - I find it can be used off the reel without any preperation - and has given me good service for over 15 years of commercial work.

One last thing - I would consider a knot potentially less damaging to a pearl then using rondelles of any material. A rondelle can mark a pearls surface or become a trap for abrasion (Talking long term here) - a well formed knot is rather less likely to have this effect - and also cushions the pearls better.

Now for my attempt at humour - Self knotting thread - I thought they all where - just try dropping the spool across the floor (or letting the cat\dog get into your thread storage) and hey presto instant knots.

[Caitlin]

Hi Bernadette.
I thought Kay Gee was some kind of synthetic thread. Is Kay Gee thread a polycotton? What is a polycotton? That poly doesn't stand for polyamide does it?

None of the places carrying it have any description of what it is.
This one was listed as a polyamide thread HERE




Hi Mary

I think the problem with silk is that if it gets wet it can't dry easily inside the pearl and that is when it starts to stretch or rot.

The reason knotty posted in the first place was to use a silk thread in a bracelet she would wear for a month to demonstrate that it won't stretch or rot.

I do not like that griffon thread with a needle attched. It is not anywhere as easy to knot as two threads (one thread through a needle and knotted so it is double.) The two thread method makes it almost impossible to misplace a knot and no tweezers or awls are required so it goes much faster than picking up and putting down a tool everytime one does a knot. If you do have technique that works with one thread, I hope you will share it with us.

[Caitlin]

It has been 2 months since I moved Knotty's post to its own thread. When she edited that first post in March, she took out the part where she said she would take before and after pictures to prove that a properly prepared silk thread could stand up to daily wear and tear, like showers, washing dishes etc.

Well here is my report anyway. I was totally unable to find a spool of the YLI silk monofiliment thread in Tucson so I just went with the PowerPro. I wore the bracelet for 2 months never taking it off in showers for dishes or even when I was sweating.(It's already hot in Tucson) It has not changed one iota. (Pearls with PowerPro = Tough). If anything the pearls are even more shiny. Go figure. I had a hard time getting the color close. I must have shot the other one in a different light.

[knotty panda]

Originally Posted by Caitlin

It has been 2 months since I moved Knotty's post to its own thread. When she edited that first post in March, she took out the part where she said she would take before and after pictures to prove that a properly prepared silk thread could stand up to daily wear and tear, like showers, washing dishes etc.

I remember saying I'd wear a bracelet my mother's day special bracelets that I wore for 6 months or so. My how time flies! But now I don't recall how long I said I would wear it without removing it. I just wish I could remember what prompted it. If I edited something, and I truly don't remember that, it is because since the thread was moved, it probably had no reference. All I know is, I didn't start this thread so I'm at a real loss as to the context of this thread.

But I'll be attacked for it over and over and I understand that, so I'll shrug and sigh yet again. If anyone can remember the context please post it and jog my memory. Thanks!

[Caitlin]

Hi knotty
You put that challenge right in the middle of the thread thread. I thought it deserved its own thread, since you were defending properly prepared silk against all comers and said you were going to show us all your test bracelet before and after, presumably to prove you are correct.

You edited it a full month after I moved it. I remember what you said before the edit, because I thought it is/was a great idea.

I don't understand why it upsets you that I did that. I often move posts that bring in a new subject, to their own thread. I thought it would be great. Not only to demonstrate that properly prepared silk thread does not stretch and can hold up to any abuse you wanted to throw at it, but that others could do the same thing. Pictures would be fab too, to let people see for themselves.

You could really put me in my place with some photos, because I wax silk thread and for heavy pearls, I used to wet it, then wax it---and it still stretches so bad I have to do it over- sometimes in days, sometimes in months.

I still think you should invest in a small camera to show your knotting work. It would be very helpful to us all if you illustrated your posts with your own photos. I have never seen a photo of any of your knotting, dear knottess, yet you have so many ideas about how to knot. Truly, I can't judge for myself which method I might like better, when you don't put up photos of your work......

I make myself vulnerable by putting up my work in photos, but if it is helpful for a beginner, so what? I would really appreciate your posts so much more, if you would actually show us what you mean.

[Pearl_dreams]

I've never tried PowerPro but that is one convincing photo, Caitlin.

Considering how much my silk knotted strands have stretched with minimal wear--even though I steamed-ironed the silk first to get the kinks out-- I think I might be trying PowerPro myself soon.