[Slraep]

Originally Posted by Kevin Canning

When Canada does finally get its act together and pass this legislation, the farming companies won't comply, they will just leave and set up in another country.

Oh this subject makes me so sad

Government legislation helps, of course, up to a point, but ultimately each individual has a duty to the human race, and that is to spend his dollar wisely. They can set up in any country they want, but if everyone shunned salmon from open pen farming, then that would put the screws to them.

I am at the other end of Canada, on Prince Edward Island. Here we are starting to have very serious problems with fish dying from pesticide run off from potato growing fields. People do not complain about the rising levels of pesticides and fungicides farmers are using. I don't know why buying an organic potato is so alien to people. It would save the fish in PEI's rivers, lakes and ponds, not to mention improve people's health(blood cancers on the rise). This past summer, there were quite a few localized ecological disasters but not enough to really shock people. But it's coming.

Yes, it's all sad sad sad.

Slraep

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Slraep

Hi Ana,

Do you mean that the open pen farming operations are small? Production low? What luxury item?? Farmed salmon is a luxury item in Canada?? Boy, that's news to me!

No, but framed trout in Romanian is...

Originally Posted by Slraep

Aquacultured fish is a 267 MILLION DOLLAR A YEAR industry in British Columbia, Canada.

Right... that's large scale farming. And I am wondering whether the large scale aspect is the fundamental problem - if either inland or offshore technologies can be environmentally friendly at such a large scale. Perhaps there is a possibility, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Slraep

I don't understand the rest of your paragraph. Maybe I've misunderstood everything.
Slraep

The rest was about trout farmers here... migration, wages, lack of investment, small scale... quite the opposite to the Canadian salmon case in just about every way. And that makes the comparison of the two cases interesting, I thought: What connects the cases is that #1. local (=from where I am standing) trout farmers do aspire to the apparent wealth of the economically developed but polluting industries, and #2 on the other side, the large scale farming at least should aspire to the low environmental impact of what these poor folks do.

I am not surprised that there was some misunderstanding: farming practices from the low and the high end are almost never compared for environmental performance. As if they were operating on different planets instead of sharing the same one...

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by Valeria101

No, but framed trout in Romanian is...

Different story, for sure.

Right... that's large scale farming. And I am wondering whether the large scale aspect is the fundamental problem - if either inland or offshore technologies can be environmentally friendly at such a large scale. Perhaps there is a possibility, I don't know.

Honestly, why tackle it from difficult angles? Why not cut the demand, then the supply will dwindle. It would be great if every human put their thinking cap on and made green choices, but I must admit, on the whole, humans are not very proactive when they must change or give something up. I still insist that the way we use our buying power can change the world. We must learn how to use this powerful tool.

The rest was about trout farmers here... migration, wages, lack of investment, small scale... quite the opposite to the Canadian salmon case in just about every way. And that makes the comparison of the two cases interesting, I thought: What connects the cases is that #1. local (=from where I am standing) trout farmers do aspire to the apparent wealth of the economically developed but polluting industries, and #2 on the other side, the large scale farming at least should aspire to the low environmental impact of what these poor folks do.

Still, whether comparing small crude operations to "state of the art" ones, there should be clear cut rules to protect the environment. Ideally it should not even be "low" impact, it should be "no" impact. Doesn't matter how big or small an operation, what it is doing, how many it provides employment for, where it is situated or anything else because everything is connected and we will all suffer the rotten consequences probably more sooner than later. Why wait for government to do anything? They are always, on average, twenty years behind what is really happening. The Canadian government is still spewing disinformation about open pen fish farming. They still deny that farmers use dye and other banned substances while raising salmon. Yummy, the consumer gets to eat this tasty crap. Mmmm...farmed salmon.

Slraep

[Kevin Canning]

Aquacultured fish is a 267 MILLION DOLLAR A YEAR industry in British Columbia, Canada.

And sport fishing in BC alone is worth 600 Million dollars / year - let alone commercial fishing.

but ultimately each individual has a duty to the human race, and that is to spend his dollar wisely.

But the consumer doesn't know this, most think they are helping wild salmon by buying farmed.

Just like I didn't know PEI potatoes were causing a problem with fish on your end of country.

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Slraep

... humans are not very proactive when they must ...give something up.

No.. not even a chunk of fish, let alone a whole industry of it!

Can't get into militant consumerism... maybe next life.

Originally Posted by Slraep

Ideally it should not even be "low" impact, it should be "no" impact.

'Wonder if there is such thing, unless we have a different definition of 'impact' - to me, that's 'effect' - something one species has over another in any ecosystem, natural or not.

It isn't that I like things from difficult angles, it seems that the easy angles don't go very far with this one. Altruism is quite rare, and so is common sense, and adequate information. Getting together all three ingredients together seems remarkably rare... which makes me trust less that social pressure to do the right thing. Government? N'ah. They had their chance for a long while.

Green pearls ?

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by Valeria101

... which makes me trust less that social pressure to do the right thing.
Green pearls ?

Why do you need social pressure to do the right thing? Why not of your own volition? Or is there no volition? If not, then I am at a loss for words---which leads me to quote someone else's words---"If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem." I get the idea that you think doing the right thing is somehow depriving oneself of something fabulous. After reading about how open pen salmon is farmed, do you really want to eat that? If you do, then I really, really don't know what to say. I don't even have any quotes! I certainly have no problem depriving my digestive system of PCBs, antibiotics, dye,...etc. I don't think Kevin feels anywhere near deprived of the product in question either.

Green pearls? YES! Sea of Cortez! I think if Douglas and his buddies had not taken up the task of ecologically(he is a lot more militant than me, I can tell you) culturing these beautiful pearls, and reviving the wild stock to produce them, they would have disappeared.

And Chinese freshwaters could end up being a lot "greener" if we "deprived" ourselves of nucleated(some are plastic nuclei) oddball shapes dyed in "carnival" colours. Just the run-off alone from the dye is an bad environmental pollutant that ends up in our oceans because it is dumped into Chinese ponds, lakes and rivers. I don't know about everyone else, but I sure would not feel I was deprived of anything if this crap quality of freshwaters suddenly disappeared from the market. I suspect Caitlin wouldn't feel she was missing out on anything much either. I guess it boils down to what exactly your idea of what deprivation is. For some people it is not getting a pickle that's sliced the way they want on their burger.

Slraep

[Pearl_dreams]

A useful bit of info for you who, like me, prefer wild salmon--

It is routinely available in a sealed package in the frozen fish case at Wal-Mart. The price is good, and I always have some in the freezer.

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Slraep

Why do you need social pressure to do the right thing? Why not of your own volition? Or is there no volition? If not, then I am at a loss for words---which leads me to quote someone else's words---"If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem."

This discussion is a form of 'social preasure'. Perhaps we are again not talking about the same thing... remember the smoking ban? It is widely accepted that 'social preassure' was the one factor that made the policy effective, not individual recognition that the habit kills. Down to our case here, the same reasoning implies that your nudging others into action by talking about your strong convictions that has more impact then your own choices have... You may not believe in 'social preassure, but you are rather good at it...

Originally Posted by Slraep

And Chinese freshwaters could end up being a lot "greener" if we "deprived" ourselves of nucleated (some are plastic nuclei) oddball shapes dyed in "carnival" colours.

I would think that the better pearls also come with a cleaner environmental record.

I also think so, then we agree on something!

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by Valeria101

This discussion is a form of 'social preasure'. Perhaps we are again not talking about the same thing... remember the smoking ban? It is widely accepted that 'social preassure' was the one factor that made the policy effective, not individual recognition that the habit kills. Down to our case here, the same reasoning implies that your nudging others into action by talking about your strong convictions that has more impact then your own choices have... You may not believe in 'social preassure, but you are rather good at it...

WOW! So informing people about pen farmed salmon and other bad environmental abuses is a form of "social pressure"?? That's interesting. Yes, this forum should ideally be a closed bubble where all we do is think happy thoughts about pearls and to heck with everything else happening to our oceans. The very oceans our cultured pearls depend on. Where is the logic in that?

Slraep

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Slraep

WOW! So informing people about pen farmed salmon and other bad environmental abuses is a form of "social pressure"?

I think so... if I understand the term well. Public information campaigns - including the ones about salmon that you might have been informed by, rely on these mechanisms... with varying degrees of success. Apparently, those issues that also appeal to self-interest (like the anti smoking campaign appealing to non-smoker's concern of second-hand smoking and disgust with the smoky offices and pubs) have an upper hand... 'thought that's quite interesting. Environmental campaigns are trying the recipe too: there must be more, but I am only familiar with a couple, such as the European bans on plastic bags appealing to every one's loath of the street garbage and kitchen clutter. In the end, such measure got legislated with barely any opposition... perhaps also because the manufacturers of said bags are so remote. Some effective conservation campaigns worked on similar principles... but that only works if the environmental matter in cause is really close to every day life, and the income level of the communities remains critical.
It's an interesting field altogether... just got a little dib into it so far.

Originally Posted by Slraep

Yes, this forum should ideally be a closed bubble where all we do is think happy thoughts about pearls and to heck with everything else happening to our oceans. The very oceans our cultured pearls depend on. Where is the logic in that?

This is far from a closed bubble... don't you think? I love that!

Frankly, the many clashes between pearling and the environment make the most fascinating story... How such an industry completely dependent on and by now well informed of environmental factors, still keeps getting hit and sunk by environmental damage, and that in such vastly different economic and legal context as Japan and China. 'Where's the logic in that' makes one hell of a question.

One can rationalize almost anything, I am afraid

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by Valeria101

One can rationalize almost anything, I am afraid

Yes, you can keep rationalizing, and rationalizing, and rationalizing, while Kevin, I , and others on this forum and elsewhere, will actually be DOING SOMETHING by boycotting open pen fish farming.

Slraep

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Slraep

Yes, you can keep rationalizing while Kevin, I , and others on this forum and elsewhere, will actually be DOING SOMETHING by boycotting open pen fish farming.

Slraep

To each his own... I doubt many pearl growers would have months to spend looking into what works were among the host of initiatives environmental protection. With the mussels nets right under their feet, I doubt they need much philosophy. I am not a pearl farmer and must be intetested in that sort of rationalizing because... that the action closest to my field of work. It seems fair that each does their bit as they know best. That's my bit.

Now, the pearls of Cortez and Kamoka are only a fraction of all talked about on this forum. And it is easiest to talk about those cases because their owners took a stance in the first place. How about the rest? How would PearlGuide look like if it wasn't for the beading quality pearls and the lower pearl prices that rely on the scorned Chinese over-production of good and bad freshwaters? Are you also prepared to take a stance on that? Be my guest...

And no, I am not very inclined to accept mainstream slogans of 'act now' and 'be part of the solution'. Blessed who can.

[Caitlin]

I love it when 2 eloquent people have strongly diverging views.

However, I am really glad that Slraep and others are raising consciousness about how intensive farming of anything from fish, to pigs, to pearls, is just terrible for everything but business! How I longed for the small family farm and now, farmer's markets are everywhere selling organic produce from small family farms. Love it!

I want to grow my own pearls in a nice backyard pond--heck the Chinese are/were growing them in ditches and puddles, so I don't think it would be hard to do at all. I just need a backhoe and some water..........

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Caitlin Williams

How I longed for the small family farm and now, farmer's markets are everywhere selling organic produce from small family farms. Love it!

I am right with you there!

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by Caitlin Williams

However, I am really glad that Slraep and others are raising consciousness about how intensive farming of anything from fish, to pigs, to pearls, is just terrible for everything but business! How I longed for the small family farm and now, farmer's markets are everywhere selling organic produce from small family farms. Love it!

Isn't it great! All these small organic farms have popped up like mushrooms here in Quebec over the past few years. Activists have been drilling the "buy local" slogan into people's heads until it worked! There's a small farm with gorgeous luscious organic black raspberries(nope, not blackberries)that set up shop last year just 20 mins. from my place. Heaven!

Since the municipality here banned the use of pesticides two years ago, the frogs have come back after a 15 year hiatus! Time to maybe throw a few mussels into the pond. No more run-off to kill them!

Slraep