[CortezPearls]

Jeremy is a 100% right on that!

But the USA, being such a powerful (the most, some would say) economy CAN do something to avoid this disaster with proper customer choices. Do we have to wait until China becomes the #1 Polluter??? Or India? or anyone else??? Many people don't think the World will be able to cope with two United States sized polluters.

The US economy can make any country do as it wills with the production of certain items. Just remember the "Leaded Mattel Toys"... the US will not admit dangerous toys, it made this clear...so, will China stop producing toys??? No, it will just adjust its production so the toys will be safe.
The clear message is: we don't buy your items because they are dangerous to __________ (place anything you want there on the line: children, pets, the environment, etc.). But if you clean up your act...we will buy them again.

Doesn't seem that hard from this viewpoint...always a problem with us "Dreamers". Sigh.

[jshepherd]

The USA?!?! I was referring to Mexico!

Kidding!

There are farms out that that have really done a lot for their local environment. It only makes sense as their very survival depends on it. Jewelmer from the Philippines is a company one hears of often in relation to the environment.

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by jshepherd

.... the #1 polluter. And we all know who that is ...

Oh yeah, we are guilty as sin. That Chinese official calling us all hypocrites was right on target. We go about our daily lives just a bit too blase(insert accent). We are a super stressed-out nation that self medicates with instant gratification. We buy and eat any crappy, empty high caloried food and buy and play with any crappy cheap throwaway doodads. We are the consumers of junk. A good three quarters of what is coming out of China is toxic landfill. We like to shop for it every weekend and put it in our homes. You can apply that to pearls too. Who is buying all those freakishly coloured grade X freshwater pearls coming out of China all over eBay? Why do you think that every single body of water(big or small) in China has been used for pearl culture? Because there is a market out there for anything---especially crap. Hey, just send it to North America, can't let the shelves go bare for a moment at Walmart.

In fact, besides being the world's biggest polluters, we are also responsible for a huge chunk of China's pollution.

Slraep

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by jshepherd

Jewelmer from the Philippines is a company one hears of often in relation to the environment.

Besides environmental issues, Jewelmer has taken some prime fishing grounds away from indigenous Filippine natives who protest to the government regularly. Nobody gives a #$%^. The government's got some kind of business deal with Jewelmer. Jewelmer has armed guards overlooking their pearl beds.

http://elac.org.ph/content/index.php...d=53&Itemid=74

Perlas can tell us more about the subject.

Slraep

[wayne]

Originally Posted by knotty panda

Did anyone see the article on MSN this morning about China's lead problem? http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...FromChina.aspx

Jeremy, you are there in the thick of it. Thoughts, please. Is there media hype to any extent occurring?

Within the above mentioned article is the following quote:

"An official of a trade group, the China National Light Industry Council, argued that responsibility for meeting foreign standards should not lie with Chinese manufacturers.

"The quality of Chinese-made toys with American brands should be the responsibility of the American brand owner, not the Chinese manufacturer," said Zhang Yanfen, the secretary of the council's panel on toy standards."

If this is the attitude then it is time to move the manufacturing to another location. There are things that are more important than low labor cost.

Wayne

[wayne]

Originally Posted by jshepherd

China is quickly becoming a major polluter, but it is important to point out that they have a long way to go to catch up with the #1 polluter. And we all know who that is ...

Do we? Has anyone ever been to Siberia? I worked for a Fortune 100 U.S. Chemical Company and traveled widely as part of my job. We are not the worst in the world, even though many would like us to think so.

I know the true story of Bhopal, the Indian Government is solely responsible for ever death (if any wants to know what really happened, send me a private message). I have seen burning rivers in Russia. Children whose mothers were exposed to so much mercury or lead that they are grossly deformed. Think of Love Canal applied to a city of 500,000 or 1,000,000. We may have had "Three Mile Island" but the Russians had Chernobyl.



I am not saying that we should stop what we are doing to improve the environment or hold those responsible accountable for their actions, but my experience says we are not the worse.

Wayne

[Slraep]

It is a worldwide problem. In the Bhopal tragedy the Indian government and Union Carbide sunk to an all time low. The disgusting attempts at a coverup and the lack of human compassion are just unbelievable and revolting. Yet it happened! Everyone should know the true story.

How does all this relate to pearls? Why are molluscs having a hard time? What is the state of our oceans like today? Who is to blame? Ultimately we have to point the finger at ourselves. Do we care? Most governments certainly don't without public pressure. Bhopal showed just how much people didn't care(and still don't).

Everyone please read Julia Whitty's twelve page report on the state of our oceans. It will make you want to cry.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...the_ocean.html

Slraep

[Ashley]

Heres the latest article on Chinese pollution affecting pearl production

http://www.colored-stone.com/stories...nesepearls.cfm

[wayne]

Originally Posted by Slraep

It is a worldwide problem. In the Bhopal tragedy the Indian government and Union Carbide sunk to an all time low. The disgusting attempts at a coverup and the lack of human compassion are just unbelievable and revolting. Yet it happened! Everyone should know the true story.
Slraep

The story of Bhopal.

It starts with Union Carbide selling pesticides to India. The Indian Government decided that they did not want to buy pesticides, instead they wanted them manufactured in India. Union Carbide was told to build a plant or leave India.

Union Carbide tried to convince India that the process was to dangerous. But they were not successful. Finally, Carbide agreed to build the plant in a remote part of India with a 5 kilometer no man's land (not individual could live within 5 km of the plant).

The 5 km restriction was not enforced by the Indian Government. The shanty town was started the same day plant construction began. The Indian Government ignored all protests and demanded that construction continue.

Before the "accident" the Indian management turned off the chiller that maintained the temperature of the MIC storage tank at 0 degrees Centigrade. The temperature was allowed to rise to 25 C. The temperature alarm was disabled. The storage tanks were equipped with vents that piped any escaping material to a scrubbing tower. A scrubbing tower is a large stack that is flood with water spray at the rate of 1000's of gallons per minute. The scrubbing town had been disassembled by the Indian management.

At this point, the MIC is at a very reactive temperature with only one safety line. The MIC unit and storage tanks were surround by water cannon capable of knocking any release of MIC>

Approximately 2000 gallons of water was pumped into the storage tank. The result was an exothermic reaction that broke the cap on the tank (the cap was 5 feet of reinforced concrete). A low cast Indian tried to warn the Unit Engineer who was having tea with the Plant Manager (neither of them were Low Cast). The man was sent berated for interrupting Tea, his message was never delivered.

The results are well known. All three safety measures failed. The chiller was broken, the scrubbing tower was removed, and the water cannons were never turned activated.

Thousands of people were killed, not one of them was a plant employee, all of the dead lived within the 5 km no man's land.

The plant at Bhopal was owned by Union Carbide India. 51% of the stock was owned by the Indian government, 49% was owned by Union Carbide USA. Not one employee of the plant was American, all were Indian Nationals. The Indian Government controlled the hiring process at the plant. Numerous protests by Union Carbide USA concerning the operation of the plant were ignored.

After the disaster, Union Carbide USA provided 200,000,000 USD in immediate aid of which only a small percentage reached Bhopal.

Does Union Carbide USA bare any responsibility? Yes, they put a hand grenade in the hands of infants and the infants pulled the pin. They are guilty of not having the moral will to resist blackmail. They are guilty of wanting to make a profit. There were many other stupid mistakes that Union Carbide USA made after the accident, the result is that Union Carbide no longer exist.

A complete analysis of all of Union Carbide's data was conducted by Arthur D. Little, London, their conclusion was that Union Carbide USA was not responsible for the tragic events in Bhopal and had, in fact, tried to resist the actions of the Indian Government and it plant management personnel that lead to the death of thousands.

Who pumped the water into the storage tank. A low caste employee seeking revenge against his supervisor. This fact is an investigative result of the interviews conducted by Indian investigators.

When talking about Bhopal, always remember that not one water cannon was activated and NOT ONE PLANT EMPLOYEE WAS INJURIED.

The end.......

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Slraep

Oh yeah, we are guilty as sin. ....We are the consumers of junk. ... In fact, besides being the world's biggest polluters, we are also responsible for a huge chunk of China's pollution.

Ha! Well.... yeah... I am neither American, not living in the US, or in a particularly high-consumption society, but I do not feel particularly righteous because of that either. Just consider:

- US demand for imports transferred more wealth into developing economies (particularly S-SE Asia, Central America, and a few others) than direct aid or investment ever could. It didn't even ask for the usual diplomatic B.S. of 'democratic standards', 'freedom of press' - nothing. Just anything it takes to crank the cheap labor gear up and swallow the dirt of progress for good measure: i.e. he most wise gift of nation-building from grass-roots up.

- US loss of whole manufacturing sectors helped invent entire industries elsewhere. Economic imbalance between manufacturing and knowledge economies resulting from the the accumulation of such transfers over decades are heating up innovation everywhere... much of it paid for by US trusts, companies and brain power. Amen!

- American consumers are taking up debt under increasingly hard conditions to support upstream industries throughout the low-wage world. I mean, these good fellows keep the giving going even of wealth they do not have!

- If it wasn't for all the easier jobs and lives of the consumption stricken American youth, thousands of brilliant, driven foreign students brought in each year by the best universities in the world - US based, most of them - would still be grazing cattle somewhere. I am not even guessing here.

- And when the slow-motion gears of a democratic, egalitarian society would just not bleed away fast enough, this country went one better and allowed some of his risk-takers get absurdly wealthy: just to make things go faster by their careless choices. No one even seem to care what such inequality would bring to every one's sanity and the nation's political will. What more meaningful sacrifice could one make, then throw themselves to experience the same dire straits as the unfortunate they might want to help?

- Not to mention where the world would be if it wasn't for the silly military expenses of the US - I mean, that's one good sector where a hearty imbalance of power really pays! There's terrorism alright, but cross-border war has become quite rare for the first time in history. That ought to count for something.

- And if it wasn't for the bloody foreign policy of the US, could Europe possibly look so good infront of its own old and new-found allies by comparison? Nooooo.... No way.

- More still: without the fast-food, fast-fashion and fast-gone-life of the American nation to measure against, how many would have never learned to value the benefit of their expensive public goods, seemingly absolete traditions, slow-motion existence and small-sized selves, raw-milk cheese and other FDA-banned goodies? How much poorer the world would be...

What other nation would have sacrificed so much to the rest of the world? Other do rank up there for good will, good example and good deeds on the international arena, but I couldn't name any other nation who would have sold its own soul, fouled its own heritage, surrendered its hard-won liberties, lent away its very future and corrupted its citizens just to make the rest of the world look good. I am not sure what the 'thank you' might be for that, but it may well come sometime during my life time: from where I am standing, it should make a good show, Coke and popcorn provided appropriately.

Sad. Just ask any American expat in continental Europe. They should have a story or two worth telling. I still hear every now and then someone uttering that 'America is the Greatest Country in the World', but that's a joke nowadays. Dark humor. Like the dim gags from the time of the late Cold War.


Wanted to let these 2c loose for a while, just not polished for the fine nose of the press.

[Slraep]

Hi Ana,

By saying that I believe we are hige consumers of junk here in North America, I was making a statement about environmental issues more than political. So politics aside, because that can become a rotten can of worms real quick, I still think that gas emissions, the consumption of non-recyclable junk(in the USA and Canada that means food too) and the indiscriminate use and dumping of toxic chemicals are the major causes of environmental degradation.

I guess, at this point, the responsibility for our environmental cleanup(if not too late), lies within the individual. If every one of us goes "green" and makes difficult yet necessary comsumer choices, we can only then force big business to stop the manufacture and sale of garbage. What is garbage? Well, that will be the hard part, weaning ourselves off the toxic luxuries we never even gave a second's thought to before. For instance, are there still people who are using non-biodegradable soap?? Using toxic solvents for cleanups around the kitchen and elsewhere? Sure there are! The store shelves are fulll of the stuff. It is all going down drains and into our oceans and back into our drinking water. How long before a mollusc cannot survive to make a pearl? And how long before we can no longer survive?

Slraep

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by Slraep

I guess, at this point, the responsibility for our environmental cleanup lies within the individual. [...] we can only then force big business to stop the manufacture and sale of garbage.

Not so sure... to me, it looks like any propaganda meant to 'change consumer behavior' is just marketing. It is every marketer's dream to 'change consumer behavior' too.

The moral value of making someone pay more for the 'right thing' just reeks.

People can only choose from what they are given to choose from.

Now... obviously I have my own preconceptions and biases: for once, I believe that self-interest and prices are the most effective and legitimate policy instruments. Others - even taxation, let alone guilt-mongering publicity campaigns - seem less effective and definitely less transparent, to say the least.

May not be the most popular view in the world after Kyoto and Gore's and what not... but ... as long as green squads do not even bother preaching for alms in places like this, I can still tote my opinion around.

Now, I believe there is some problem, if myself and many long for things from before market economy success. However, I believe that such collective nostalgia is being further exploited by 'the system' rather than addressed.


Now... I would really hate to let my day's work spill into posting this much... Should have known better already!

[Slraep]

Originally Posted by Valeria101

Not so sure... to me, it looks like any propaganda meant to 'change consumer behavior' is just marketing. It is every marketer's dream to 'change consumer behavior' too.

The moral value of making someone pay more for the 'right thing' just reeks.

People can only choose from what they are given to choose from.

Just like I wasn't talking politics, I'm not talking marketing but environmental issues. Proper consumer behavior towards our ever growing pollution problem is to simply avoid, as much as possible, the products that pollute. For example, you don't have to use herbicides on your lawn, you can weed manually. No marketing there. Many times the "right thing" is avoidance and it doesn't cost anything except some extra time. Spending a dollar more on a biodegradable product makes for a responsible and compassionate person who cares about what is happening in the world today---not someone influenced by propaganda. Are there still people who think global warming, pollution and the use of "green" products are propaganda???

Slraep

[Slraep]

An interesting article...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/...greencol06.php

another on wastewater in China

http://www.dbc.uci.edu/~sustain/suscoasts/krismin.html



Slraep

[CortezPearls]

Originally Posted by Slraep

Just like I wasn't talking politics, I'm not talking marketing but environmental issues. Proper consumer behavior towards our ever growing pollution problem is to simply avoid, as much as possible, the products that pollute. For example, you don't have to use herbicides on your lawn, you can weed manually. No marketing there. Many times the "right thing" is avoidance and it doesn't cost anything except some extra time. Spending a dollar more on a biodegradable product makes for a responsible and compassionate person who cares about what is happening in the world today---not someone influenced by propaganda. Are there still people who think global warming, pollution and the use of "green" products are propaganda???

Slraep

I agree entirely. One of the reasons why people are changing their consumption habits is to enjoy a healthier life, that is the major force driving the "Organic Products" line of foods/beverages. Once people think about it for a bit some may start thinking: "My food is safe, but are my clothes safe? are the toys my children play safe?" etc. In the end it is only logic that those people WILL choose goods that they consider safe for the environment, to local cultures and in favor of sound labor conditions.
Of course, we will always have people that WILL NOT CARE. I mean...they don't care about themselves (gorging on burgers and fries) nor about the environment and they surely don't care about labor conditions elsewhere (I am sure they are not enjoying fair conditions either).
I don't think it is a question of politics of even about marketing, I really think it is a question of Survival of the Human race and our Planet, a question all sentient beings should ask. And to rephrase JFK's wonderful phrase: "Ask not what your Country can do to Save the Environment, but what you as a Human can do to save your Planet".
Every little bit counts.