[FPera]

I recently purchased a hanadama certified Akoya necklace from Pearl Paradise where they advertise a nacre thickness between 0.5mm and 0.6mm and a total average of 1.2mm. This is my second week in knowing anything about pearls, so please excuse any stupid questions. What is the definition of the nacre thickness as specified in a Pearl Science Laboratory (PSL) certificate? Specifically, is the "Thickness of Pearl Layers" measurement the minimum nacre thickness of each of the pearls in the associated necklace or is it an average thickness of all the pearls in the necklace (or is it something else)? Also, can the measured thickness be greater than 0.6mm, e.g., 1.0mm? American Pearls claims their pearls have a certified thickness of 1mm each side.

[Kevin Canning]

American Pearls claims their pearls have a certified thickness of 1mm each side.

I'll let Jeremy chime in and comment on his product, but American pearl has been doing some creative marketing in the last year or so and I think the above statement falls into that category. They simply aren't culturing Akoya pearls long enough to reach that sort of nacre depth on a regular basis.

[Valeria101]

Originally Posted by FPera

American Pearls claims their pearls have a certified thickness of 1mm each side.

As long as they don't expect anyone to check and make the results public... anything goes.

They also trash the JSL Hanadama certificate quite badly on THIS PAGE.
Citing: "You see, ultimately, whether or not your strand of cultured pearls comes with the certificate from the pearl science laboratory from Japan, you are still at the mercy of the seller who is offering you the strand."

From this side of the screen, there's no clear reason not to include AP among the sellers bunch referred o in the quote. An independent 'paper' would always mean more, whether they like it or not. Perhaps the product is better and the additive grading argument holds in this case. For the cost of those pearls, there sure is room to have an independent report (JSL, AGTA, anyone knows better?...). Including a sliced pearl with the necklace doesn't constitute much proof for anything, logically. I am sure AP realizes that. Truth in advertising might even be marginally more frequent than LOGIC!

My 2c.

If anyone wanted to know what they have, where to go? What is a decent lab report for pearls anyway?

[pattye]

Hi Valeria101,
Recently I had 5 items 1 strand Kasumi pearls, 4 Tahitian and South Seas, appraised by Sharon Wakefield of Northwest Gemological Lab in Boise Idaho. (phone 208-362-3938) She had been mentioned here as a knowledgeable appraiser. The reports include remarks about nacre thickness, and were very thorough. I mean to post the details here, with pics soon. The items were purchased from Carolyn Ehret via Ebay before I found this forum. I was curious about value, and nacre thickness, but had no doubts about authenticity. Cost for appraisal was reasonable, $65 each for multiple items, plus postage registered mail +insurance. There was no one here in the Portland area I would trust to evaluate them.
Pattye Saab

[jshepherd]

For those of you who have been watching AP's Site over the last couple of months you have seen a lot of changes. It is impossible for us to miss the fact that they have simply been trying to 1-up our Site every time.
They started with simply carrying Hanadama quality. They touted the certificate and even had photos of the cert on their Site. Well, we new we could sell the same strands with certificates for less, so we had our Kobe supplier send the best strands into JSL to get certified as Hanadama.
This cert does, in fact, grade the level of luster, contrary to the statement on AP. But the grading is in Japanese. It is the "Teri-value analysis". I can only assume they must not understand Japanese to make that statement.
As soon as we began selling Hanadama with certificate, AP completely changed their tune. They posted that some sellers may be submitting Chinese Akoya to the JSL, and that the cert does not mean anything, and that their Hanadama had a .6mm nacre (for a total of 1.2mm), and they only allowed for a .15 deviance.
I sent the owner an email about the "Chinese" statement, telling him that this was dishonest and he knew it. He immediately removed that, but left the .6mm claim.
So in response, we decided to only sell Hanadama with a cert stating .5-.6mm.

Their latest response... well you can see it on their Site. Suddenly their Hanadama nacre depth doubled - in one week. Go figure... Of course the Hanadama certificate does not allow for higher than .6 on the cert, so who can prove that they do or do not have what they claim? I find it interesting, however, that if the pearls are as they claim, the prices have not changed at all. Think about it! To reach that nacre depth it would take an additional 2 years of culturing time. Smell fishy? Smells like rotten oysters to me.

Now to my own personal take on nacre depth with Hanadama. I think the entire argument is without merit. The test is only done a couple of pearls in each strand. The .6mm does not mean that every pearl has .6. Each strand will have pearls with .7 or .8mm. When creating strands of Hanadama quality, the pearls are matched based on their color and quality, not their nacre depth. In a strand of 8-8.5mm Hanadama you have 50 pearls. No single pearl is going to be exactly the same, and no two pearls will have exactly the same depth of nacre - period!

I think the claims are no more than a marketing strategy, and I know that they are specifically aimed at me. AP was, at one time, the largest and most successful pearl company on the Internet. They are now in 3rd or 4th place, and we are (Pearl Paradise) indisputably in 1st place. I could respond again and make changes to our Hanadama offerings. But I do not feel exaggeration and shady marketing techniques are a good foundation to build on the future. I feel that an educated and satisfied customer is the foundation.

I am not going to exaggerate and make some outrageous claim that our average customers spend 3 hours on our Site educating themselves before making a purchase (sorry guys, inside joke - but someone knows exactly what I am talking about). But we DO educate the consumer - that is what pearl-guide is here for. And no one can argue that this is not an open forum.

PS
Another exaggeration on AP is their "Chinese Akoya" section. Claiming to sell Chinese Akoya and showing a picture of "Chinese Akoya". But isn't it a bit dishonest to use a picture of their own A+ quality Japanese Akoya as the "Chinese Akoya" picture? As Stephen pointed out earlier, it is the exact same picture. They are selling their lowest quality Akoya (that they claim all over their Site is strictly Japanese) as Chinese Akoya in a simple attempt to make Chinese Akoya appear inferior.

Edit Someone over at AP is reading this forum. The pictures have been switched! The Chinese Akoya section still shows low-grade akoya which up until yesterday were the same pictures as those used for the low-grade Japanese, but now the Japanese photos are switched, with a little help from photoshop, obviously.

[Pearls_by_Angela_Carol]

Also, if you remember a few years back they were basing thier quality and price on the weight of the pearls (actually on the weight of the lots).

This is a quote from thier site from some time ago...

"Although AAA quality is very fine, Collection quality pearls have the thickest nacre (or skin of the pearl). There is a direct relationship between nacre thickness and luster (the mirror-like quality of the pearl). Thicker skinned pearls have higher luster. Also, pearls that have a thicker nacre also weigh more. So a Collection quality strand is actually heavier than a AAA quality. When American Pearl purchases pearls in volume, we buy by the weight. So the weight of the Collection quality pearls is reflected within the price."

[jshepherd]

That is actually quite funny, not to mention completely false information. The info is still on their forum, and for those of you who did not see the .6mm guarantee of just a week or so ago, here it is on their forum:

"What is the exact NACRE THICKNESS (the skin of the pearl) measured to be for your exact strand? Is it .50mm, .55mm or .6mm? Pearls are bought and sold by weight. Thicker NACRE pearls are heavier, more durable and therefore worth more. In addition, luster and nacre are directly correlated, a nacre thickness of .6mm (which we can guarantee you) is more lustrous than a .55mm or .5mm and therefore worth more."

Their claim was .6mm until we did the same thing 2 weeks ago. Now, all of a sudden, it has doubled. If you think about it, it is not even in the realm of possibility nor reason.

By the way, do any of you realize what .05mm of nacre really is? Think about the diameter of an airborne particle of dust! We have sold Hanadama with minimum certs (.4mm measured depth), and Hanadama with maximum certs (.6mm of measured depth). There is absolutely no visual difference to me, and I have examined quite a few pearl strands in my day.

[Satine De La Courcel]

And to think I went there to that site for pearl information before I stumbled across this site! Yes..... me coming here was simply by accident. A restless night of not being ablr to shut my brain down( be afraid.. be very afreid I am! ) However I am so very happy I am here! I have learned so mch more from here! and just about everyone here will back up their knowledge or claim! that is really nice to see!

I always thought of that site as amature like me oh wait my mistake I am the one who is admitedly immature LOL..... LOL!!!!!!

It still sounds like they are putting the same old Seven and six routine to play on peoples poor knowledge of pearls! and unfortunately the ploy works if not they would not have a business....


Cheers
Ash

[mikehrz]

I'm not sure how much attention AP is paying to those hanadama certs, but:
http://www.americanpearl.com/noname23.html

AMERICAN PEARL is famous for their detailed examination and testing of cultured pearl strands. In fact, you can see from an excerpt of the certificate below that each pearl necklace undergoes multiple tests including magnification, inner inspection by optical fiber, spectro photometric reflectance and soft x-ray annalysis. These tests are collectively knows as "teri-value analysis.

If you look at the pic immediately below this text, you'll see that the box next to "spectro photometric reflectance" is not checked. Since AP claims to be doing these tests themselves, you'd think they'd notice a detail like that.

Little known fact: Jeremy also sends his pearls to AP to be tested. Want proof? Check out the certs on this page:
http://www.pearlparadise.com/Hanadama-Akoya.htm
Notice how the certs listed here look exactly the same as the excerpts on the AP page listed above? Oh, wait a minute, the certs on PearlParadise say "Pearl Science Laboratory." Hmm...

Also on the same AP page, notice that, although they claim that their pearls have 1 mm of nacre or 2 mm total, they don't show any certification of that "fact." As Jeremy pointed out, that's because they can't; you can see from the certs pictured on Pearl Paradise that the certificate does indeed only go to 0.6 mm.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I think the only pearl-related site I've spent anywhere near 3 hours on total, much less at one sitting, is the Pearl-Guide forum.

[Pearls_by_Angela_Carol]

Originally Posted by mikehrz

I'm not sure how much attention AP is paying to those hanadama certs, but:
http://www.americanpearl.com/noname23.html....

Now wait a minute... on this page:
http://www.americanpearl.com/collectionselection.html
the put down Hanadama by saying "Therefore, Hanadama simply means that the pearl is (1) round and (2) has a rose overtone."

but on this page:
http://www.americanpearl.com/noname23.html
they are saying how Hanadama is the best and showing the Hanadama certificate?

I'm confused. Or is it AP that is confused?

[mikehrz]

Actually, I suspect AP knows exactly what they're doing. They've been in the biz too long to be ignorant. And who better to disperse misinformation than someone who knows the truth?

It's obvious that hanadama means high luster and very few flaws in addition to round and rose overtone. (Since I can't read Japanese, perhaps someone could point out the section that identifies the overtone?) Notice, though, that on the page with the cert excerpts, they claim to do the tests themselves and never credit the PSL. Could this be a form of plagiarism?

[jshepherd]

Mike,
I had not even seen that description of "teri-value analysis" on AP. What it shows is that I was right in my first post. Here is a little piece of education that should find its way to pearl-education.com! "Teri" is Japanese for luster!
Basically AP is saying in that section that all those tests are just to measure the luster (which is incorrect, by the way - only one of those tests measure the "teri value", or luster). But then they also say luster is not measured on the Hanadama cert. Clearly they have no clue what teri means in English. Am I wrong to draw any other conclusion? It is a clear contradiction on their own Site, drawn from their own misunderstanding of the product they have been dealing in for 50 years!

Do they have 2mm nacre (total) on their Hanadama all of a sudden? Maybe they do. They can't prove they do, and I cannot prove they don't. Do I believe it personally? About as much as I believe in the Nigerian prince that is offering to split $50 million US with me. I certainly hope no one believes they cut a "random" pearl in half for each of their strands to prove it - that is utter nonsense.

Are their Hanadama better than ours? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. That argument could go on forever. But this is my question! If not a single consumer could tell the difference between our Hanadama, yet they say their's are better, would they really be so much better as to be worth another $1000 for a strand? Peronally I would not think so, unless they came with the ultimate value-added attribute - a blue box. Does the argument really matter? It is more an ego thing than anything else. I have only been able to secure 10-15 Hanadama strands each month in each size. We have a waiting list every time before the next batch arrives, and it is a very small portion of our business. We probably sell 100 freshadama for every hanadama. And I am very proud of the freshadama.

So I say "let them have it". Let them claim their Hanadama now suddenly have twice the nacre depth than they did last week, whatever! I do pity the consumer that falls for it, but the information is out there! Any consumer that does adequate research will come to the same clear conclusion. If they do not do their research, they obviously can afford to pay the extra money - so be it! AP's prices are still lower than Tiffany or Mikimoto, and they do carry a high quality product. At least they are not an "eBay style" rip off.

[jshepherd]

Mike,

I do read Japanese, but you do not need to be able to read Japanese to see that shape and overtone are not tested nor evaluated on the certificate. Shape is not a concern as these are Akoya pearls, and overtone does not necessarily need to be rose. Come one, rose overtone is a result of pinking anyway!
http://www.pearlparadise.com/Images/CERTI-XI.jpg
You can see from the cert that the only things tested are:
1. Nacre depth
2. Teri value (or luster)
3. Kizu, or imperfections
There is a reason why the highest grade of imperfection is "very slightly". On some level all pearls will have inconsistencies which can and are deemed as imperfections. Perfectly flawless pearl necklaces DO NOT EXIST, unless the determined level of "flawlessness" allows for some inconsistencies and/or imperfections. This is why flawless has never been an accepted grade of pearl - except on American Pearl. The Japanese have never accepted a "flawless" grade. Are they going to claim that every pearl in a strand is 100% symmetrical, or not a single miniature discoloration exists, or every pearl in the necklace is 100% perfectly matched to the one next to or across from it? That is a standard even Mikimoto does not claim to attain. It is not even a standard anyone else admits to exist.

[mikehrz]

Originally Posted by jshepherd

I do read Japanese, but you do not need to be able to read Japanese to see that shape and overtone are not tested nor evaluated on the certificate. Shape is not a concern as these are Akoya pearls, and overtone does not necessarily need to be rose. Come one, rose overtone is a result of pinking anyway!

Ok, but why does it say "Grading the color, shape, and surface condition..."?

Originally Posted by Zeide Erskine

Not to mention that they always preach how they are selling you white pearls and whites only and never cream and then you can choose from several shades of cream under the options below.

I hadn't noticed that. That is funny. Since they say cream is worth half as much, and blemished pearls are worth half as much, does that mean a cream strand with blemishes is worth 1/4 as much as their "flawless white" pearls?
--------
More silliness courtesy of AP:

Welcome to American Pearl's CULTURED PEARL NECKLACE SHOWCASE. Pearls of this quality are only available at finer stores such as Tiffany & Co. or Mikimoto.

When you purchase pearls from American Pearl, you are guaranteed to purchase pearls that are finer quality than others, as they were selected first.

So which is it? Is AP offering better pearls than the other stores, or are they "merely" just as good?